Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

For all discussions relating to British military and naval matters of the Edwardian and immediate pre-First World War period, 1901-1914.

Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Mark » 07 Feb 2013 21:01

An interesting photo posted on behalf of a friend! A Scottish regiment in China c.1908? They seem to wear the 1903 Pattern Bandolier equipment but are armed with the Lee Enfield No.1 MKIII which was introduced around 1907. Anyone have any idea as to the regiment and where this was taken?

Mark

404839_261541883979537_1620517138_n.jpg
404839_261541883979537_1620517138_n.jpg (90.04 KiB) Viewed 1760 times
Mark Simner BA (Hons) MSc | Web: http://marksimner.me.uk | Twitter @marksimner
User avatar
Mark
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 4007
Images: 57
Joined: 10 Aug 2007 16:05
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Stuart_Bates » 07 Feb 2013 23:41

The 2nd Battalion, The Cameron Highlanders were in Tientsin, China 1908-1910. The sporran looks to be correct but someone knowledgeable in this area should be able to give a definitive answer.

Interesting is that they are wearing wicker helmets with khaki covers at this relatively late date. My own thoughts are that the adoption of the Wolseley was complete by around 1910.

Stuart
User avatar
Stuart_Bates
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 943
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 22:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby QSVC » 08 Feb 2013 06:24

Hello,

Its a great photo, no two ways about it. The rifle appears to be the No 1 Mk1 (or a variant) rather than a No1 Mk3. The former having higher protective 'ears' either side of the front foresight and was introduced in 1904 so might place it earlier if correct. Too dark to see any other characteristics of the rifle to confirm.

Its a period I've become interested in of late so I'll be curious to a definitive answer.

All the best,

Robert
User avatar
QSVC
Senior Member
 
Posts: 297
Joined: 21 Dec 2009 22:41
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Mark » 08 Feb 2013 19:14

QSVC wrote:The rifle appears to be the No 1 Mk1 (or a variant) rather than a No1 Mk3.


Well spotted! Looking closer at the photo I can't say for sure either way but you may well be correct. Images of MKI and MKIII below for comparison.

Mark

no1mk1.jpg
No1 MKI
no1mk1.jpg (103.22 KiB) Viewed 1707 times


no1MkIII.jpg
No1 MKIII
no1MkIII.jpg (101.4 KiB) Viewed 1707 times
Mark Simner BA (Hons) MSc | Web: http://marksimner.me.uk | Twitter @marksimner
User avatar
Mark
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 4007
Images: 57
Joined: 10 Aug 2007 16:05
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby rd72 » 09 Feb 2013 06:56

Hi there,

Just thought that I'd chime in,....... Definately Camerons.....

Rob
Cheers,
Rob
User avatar
rd72
Senior Member
 
Posts: 480
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 17:44

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Mark » 14 Feb 2013 21:23

I think they are Camerons also - fits the time period and location.

Can anyone add anything to this - looking for absolutely any information related to the photo and the men in it?

Mark
Mark Simner BA (Hons) MSc | Web: http://marksimner.me.uk | Twitter @marksimner
User avatar
Mark
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 4007
Images: 57
Joined: 10 Aug 2007 16:05
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Stuart_Bates » 14 Feb 2013 22:56

There is an interesting article in The Straits Times of 13 May 1908 (http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Artic ... .2.90.aspx) which places the "advance" party of the Camerons in Peking.

The article talks about the natives of Peking "hard at work trying to assimilate the Scotch language."

Stuart
User avatar
Stuart_Bates
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 943
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 22:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Stuart_Bates » 14 Feb 2013 23:14

In Trevor Royle's Queen's Own Highlanders, A Concise History he states “China was the next station and in 1909 2nd Camerons moved to India to become part of 81st Brigade in 27th Division at Poona.” This indicates that they were in China 1908 to 1909.

Stuart
PS. From a brief skim of the eBook I would say concise is the operative word but that was the author's remit.
User avatar
Stuart_Bates
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 943
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 22:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Stuart_Bates » 14 Feb 2013 23:40

From the London And China Telegraph, April 21 1908 -

Camerons Peking 1908.jpg
Camerons Peking 1908.jpg (158.39 KiB) Viewed 1632 times


Stuart
User avatar
Stuart_Bates
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 943
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 22:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby QSVC » 15 Feb 2013 03:04

Hello all,

Well that would tie in with another topic and post.....In particular the picture showing the Russians atop the wall of the city walls....

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7769

In the picture above of the Cameron Highlanders, you can just make out a tower above the heads of the men at left, and the legation area was in the vicinity of this wall and I'd be tempted to say that the building at extreme left is a city gate, perhaps the gate tower from where the picture of the Russians was taken from.

Robert
User avatar
QSVC
Senior Member
 
Posts: 297
Joined: 21 Dec 2009 22:41
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby jf42 » 16 Feb 2013 00:04

Stuart_Bates wrote:In Trevor Royle's Queen's Own Highlanders, A Concise History
PS. From a brief skim of the eBook I would say concise is the operative word but that was the author's remit.


I can't speak to the accuracy of the reference to the Camerons' arrival in Peking but Trevor Royle's histories of various Highland Regiments should not be relied on if the Black Watch volume is anything to go by. Poor.
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2282
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Mark » 20 Feb 2013 00:26

Thank you for the additional information, guys! It is greatly appreciated! I will let the owner of the original photograph know :)

Mark
Mark Simner BA (Hons) MSc | Web: http://marksimner.me.uk | Twitter @marksimner
User avatar
Mark
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 4007
Images: 57
Joined: 10 Aug 2007 16:05
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby jkeates » 03 Jun 2015 12:55

Hi,

My Great Grandfather Harry Keates was a sergeant in the Cameroon Highlanders and was stationed in Tientsin at this time. He travelled from a deployment in South Africa by boat and the regiment diaries available at Fort George document the journey and the arrival. I have a copy from a recent trip there. As an NCO he traveled with his wife and upon redeployment back to the UK he was presented with a inscribed chinese vase by the other NCOs based in Tientsin, which my parents still have. My Grandfather and his brother were both born in Peking.

I haven't looked at the information for a while and would need to remind myself of the details, but I have collected a far amount of info. My recollection of the diaries is that they spent most of their time in Tientsin playing sport.

There is another photo online of the highlanders - https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18060/lot/236/.
I recognise the taller officer in the front row from a photo I have of the CH's NCO taken in 1914/15.
jkeates
New Member
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 12:37

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby Stuart_Bates » 03 Jun 2015 23:45

What has just become apparent to me is that the soldier 6th from the right in the front row appears to be wearing a Wolseley helmet rather than the Colonial pattern and further down the line there seem to be others. I can only presume that it was the usual "tradition" of using equipment until it became unserviceable.

Stuart
User avatar
Stuart_Bates
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 943
Joined: 27 Feb 2009 22:07
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Interesting photo of Scottish regiment C.1908

Postby gordon92 » 04 Jun 2015 21:22

A friend whose father was serving in the 2nd Camerons at this time said that his father remarked that all the old hands in the battalion were easily able to spot the new drafts by possession of the Wolseley pattern helmets.
User avatar
gordon92
Participating Member
 
Posts: 182
Joined: 10 Jun 2012 02:02
Location: Stratham, New Hampshire USA

Next

Return to The Edwardian & Immediate Pre-First World War Period 1901-14

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest