Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

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Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby Noman » 16 Jan 2018 15:06

Saw this link on Great War Forum
:arrow: :?:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... 1-solider/
Note any ideas of ID...please reply to Great War Forum [must register to reply]
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby grumpy » 17 Jan 2018 15:57

sorted.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 18 Jan 2018 02:53

I am not going to post in the WW1 forum. Too much trench foot and gas attack over there. This guy has been identified as a member of the Hampshire regiment and the evidence seems correct as to his unit.

The medal he is wearing is MOST LIKELY an "India Medal 1849-1899". Ribbon stripe and floral suspension system tell me so, and the Hampshire's would have received this medal for the late 19th century Burma Campaigns. This medal has one clasp. It reads as one of the three following awarded clasps to the Hampshire's.......

2nd Hampshire's...."Burma 1885-7"
1st Hampshire's...."Burma 1887-89"
1st Hampshire's...."Burma 1889-92"

That's all I can say. It's a start for identification if that is possible.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby grumpy » 18 Jan 2018 17:35

He is the sergeant instructor in musketry of a VF unit. Ordinary sergeant instructor had no crossed rifles/muskets but still 4 chevrons. 1878 until possibly as late as 1910 but I guess 1908.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby rd72 » 18 Jan 2018 17:57

I can't remember who the OP was on the Great War Forum (jf? grumpy?..) but here is an excerpt of the description of the badge...
from the Great War Forum.. and a reputable poster.... and the picture that sparked that conversation...

https://scontent.fyvr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5AF82E8C

It is the badge of a Musketry Instructor serving with a Territorial Force i.e. part-time unit, before WW1. These 4-bar chevron ranks, point down on upper arm, were retained by the predecessors to the TF, the volunteer force, after they were no longer used by the regular army from 1881 onward.

When the rank of warrant officer was introduced in 1881, it applied to regular and militia units only, and a badge of a plain crown on the lower arm replaced the 4-bar chevron and crown that hitherto (i.e. before 1881) had been worn on the right arm (upper arm in some corps and lower in others).

Each VF unit had a number of permanent staff musketry instructors supplied by the regular army. All of them (each at that time with a substantive regular army rank of colour sergeant) wore 4-bar chevrons with crossed rifles over, and one was selected by the commanding officer to be "acting sergeant major" (ASM), which was the official equivalent of the warrant officer (aka RSM) for that unit.

The ASM wore a crown above his 4-bar chevrons as his distinguishing rank. Thus it was that until early in WW1, the badges of rank for the senior OR post within an infantry unit, and musketry instructors too, were different for TF, when compared with regulars and reserve/special reserve battalions of the same regiment. The regulatory changes of 1915 brought the rank badges of all units into line with the regular army practice and the 4-bar chevron was no longer worn on the upper arm.

It is clear then that your subject was a regular colour sergeant posted to serve with a part-time infantry battalion as one of its musketry instructors. This could be done either, within the last two years or so of regular service, or at the point of retirement if the man had his regular commanding officer's recommendation for the post. Providing he remained healthy and competent it was possible to remain in that role into middle age, i.e. beyond the normal retirement point. It was, in effect, a 'long service' post.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby grumpy » 18 Jan 2018 18:49

I am not convinced that the TF inherited these unique distinctions in 1908, because TF Regs 1910, whereas they confirm the ARSM badge, change the CSgt Instr badge to the regular badge 3 chevrons crossed flags crown, and the sergeant instructors 3 bar and crossed rifles [sic]. There is no mention of the distinction for the musketry instructor.

Incidentally the ARSM badge was being worn as late as about 1920 by the "rear rank sergeant major" of the Cheshires [regulars]. He was a CSgt appointed to understudy the RSM.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2018 16:59

rd72 wrote:I can't remember who the OP was on the Great War Forum (jf? grumpy?..) but here is an excerpt of the description of the badge...
from the Great War Forum.. and a reputable poster.... and the picture that sparked that conversation...

https://scontent.fyvr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5AF82E8C

It is the badge of a Musketry Instructor serving with a Territorial Force i.e. part-time unit, before WW1. These 4-bar chevron ranks, point down on upper arm, were retained by the predecessors to the TF, the volunteer force, after they were no longer used by the regular army from 1881 onward.

When the rank of warrant officer was introduced in 1881, it applied to regular and militia units only, and a badge of a plain crown on the lower arm replaced the 4-bar chevron and crown that hitherto (i.e. before 1881) had been worn on the right arm (upper arm in some corps and lower in others).

Each VF unit had a number of permanent staff musketry instructors supplied by the regular army. All of them (each at that time with a substantive regular army rank of colour sergeant) wore 4-bar chevrons with crossed rifles over, and one was selected by the commanding officer to be "acting sergeant major" (ASM), which was the official equivalent of the warrant officer (aka RSM) for that unit.

The ASM wore a crown above his 4-bar chevrons as his distinguishing rank. Thus it was that until early in WW1, the badges of rank for the senior OR post within an infantry unit, and musketry instructors too, were different for TF, when compared with regulars and reserve/special reserve battalions of the same regiment. The regulatory changes of 1915 brought the rank badges of all units into line with the regular army practice and the 4-bar chevron was no longer worn on the upper arm.

It is clear then that your subject was a regular colour sergeant posted to serve with a part-time infantry battalion as one of its musketry instructors. This could be done either, within the last two years or so of regular service, or at the point of retirement if the man had his regular commanding officer's recommendation for the post. Providing he remained healthy and competent it was possible to remain in that role into middle age, i.e. beyond the normal retirement point. It was, in effect, a 'long service' post.


I recall writing that post Rob and stand by the majority of it. The only thing I would change is that I recently read that the Militia also did not have warrant officers. The distinction was intended for professional posts only it seems and apparently the Militia battalion sergeant majors were also acting appointments.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2018 17:04

grumpy wrote:I am not convinced that the TF inherited these unique distinctions in 1908, because TF Regs 1910, whereas they confirm the ARSM badge, change the CSgt Instr badge to the regular badge 3 chevrons crossed flags crown, and the sergeant instructors 3 bar and crossed rifles [sic]. There is no mention of the distinction for the musketry instructor.

Incidentally the ARSM badge was being worn as late as about 1920 by the "rear rank sergeant major" of the Cheshires [regulars]. He was a CSgt appointed to understudy the RSM.


I don’t doubt that regulations changed after the formation of the TF in 1908, Grumpy. As always with these reorganisations there would have been a period of bedding in. I am confident that the photo shows a musketry instructor in an auxiliary unit, albeit that the unit concerned might be doing its own thing based on long established VF practice until new policy was articulated and promulgated. From what you have said it seems that the regulations of 1910 marked the point when things were changed.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby grumpy » 21 Jan 2018 19:54

As a further very minor clarification, the CSgts appointed ARSMs of auxilliary forces were denied the full blown embellishments of warrant officer uniform almost until the Great War. I can find a date of change of heart if anyone needs it. Until then, Clothing Regs went out of their way to make the distinction in clothing quality.
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby rd72 » 21 Jan 2018 20:37

Frogsmile wrote:
I recall writing that post Rob and stand by the majority of it. The only thing I would change is that I recently read that the Militia also did not have warrant officers. The distinction was intended for professional posts only it seems and apparently the Militia battalion sergeant majors were also acting appointments.


Ah, yes, sorry about that frogsmile. I knew it was a familiar member who had written it but couldn't remember who. Thank you for your clarification. The whole topic of the nuances of VF and TF ranks, appointments and positions is something that I don't know much about, and enjoy the insights that you and others bring.
Cheers,
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Re: Picture of Sgt of the Hampshire regiment

Postby Frogsmile » 22 Jan 2018 12:40

rd72 wrote:
Frogsmile wrote:
I recall writing that post Rob and stand by the majority of it. The only thing I would change is that I recently read that the Militia also did not have warrant officers. The distinction was intended for professional posts only it seems and apparently the Militia battalion sergeant majors were also acting appointments.


Ah, yes, sorry about that frogsmile. I knew it was a familiar member who had written it but couldn't remember who. Thank you for your clarification. The whole topic of the nuances of VF and TF ranks, appointments and positions is something that I don't know much about, and enjoy the insights that you and others bring.


No problem Rob. I agree that the idiosyncrasies of the then VF/TF seem rather arcane when looked at today, but like you I feel that the nuances those organisations contributed to the evolution of warrant rank are both important and interesting.
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