Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Maureene » 24 Sep 2011 02:39

The VC mentioned by Liz above, awarded to a 15 year old in China in 1860, was awarded to Andrew/Arthur Fitzgibbon. He was a Hospital Apprentice i.e. a trainee Apothecary, in the Bengal Subordinate Medical Department, which he had joined at age 14. This was a part of the Bengal Army

There are details about him on the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Apothecaries.
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=A ... Fitzgibbon

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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Peter » 24 Sep 2011 05:15

There is also some relevant information on this Topic here:

i) Age for Battle?, viewtopic.php?f=82&t=3151

ii) The rank Drummer, drum signals, other duties etc, viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1089

Incidentally, my post of 15 Sep 2010 in the second thread notes:

“ ….. Drummer Thomas Flinn, 64th Foot, (together with another 15 year old) is the youngest ever winner of the VC.”

The unnamed 15 year old is the Andrew/Arthur Fitzgibbon referenced by Maureene
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Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engineer

Postby scentials » 05 May 2013 14:04

Hi,
My great grandfather (Thomas Inward) joined the Royal Engineers on 9th Sept 1864 aged 18. But there is a note on his record of service that his service in the Royal Engineers could not commence or count towards g pay or pension until 10th Oct 1865, as he was a member of Hampshire Militia. However on his enlistment paper he answered no to that question.
Wondering if he deliberately lied because of a bounty, age or something I haven't thought of,
Any insight appreciated

Virginia
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Re: Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engine

Postby Frogsmile » 05 May 2013 14:43

scentials wrote:Hi,
My great grandfather (Thomas Inward) joined the Royal Engineers on 9th Sept 1864 aged 18. But there is a note on his record of service that his service in the Royal Engineers could not commence or count towards g pay or pension until 10th Oct 1865, as he was a member of Hampshire Militia. However on his enlistment paper he answered no to that question.
Wondering if he deliberately lied because of a bounty, age or something I haven't thought of,
Any insight appreciated

Virginia


It could just be the mistake of a naive young man, but it would also not be unusual if he had been trying to avoid losing his Militia Bounty. Whatever the case making false attestation was a criminal offence if prosecuted. It might be that his CO was willing to give him the benefit of doubt with regards to deliberate duplicity, but insisted that the regular enlistment date be amended.
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Re: Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engine

Postby scentials » 06 May 2013 09:53

Thanks for your reply.
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Re: Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engine

Postby Frogsmile » 06 May 2013 10:07

scentials wrote:Thanks for your reply.


I am glad to help. I forgot to mention that it could also have been in connection with age. Many of the Militia rank and file were little more than gauche rural teens, whereas regulars had to be a set age unless they were enlisted formally as 'boys' under separate terms and conditions. However, judging an enlistees age was always difficult in the days when birth certification was less accessible to the authorities and so there were numerous cases of undetected underage enlistment.

Thus it could be that he was old enough for the Militia, but underage for regular service until the 10th October date stipulated.

In situations where a man was found to be underage he was not often discharged if of good material and there was a clause in regulations permitting his retention until he reached the correct age with the caveat that he could not go on active service until then. There are mentions of this in Hansard's Parliamentary records as late as the 1890s and even into WW1.
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Re: Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engine

Postby scentials » 07 May 2013 16:05

Thank you again. i can't find any record of his birth or any record in a census before he was married.
Life is fully of mysteries :)
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Militia: Enrollment Age?

Postby Peter » 16 Jul 2013 14:20

Many of the Militia rank and file were little more than gauche rural teens

I have a fellow who attested to the Corps of Armourers in 1867, aged 23
…… who advised on his Attestation Form: served in “2 Warwick Regt of Militia 5 years”

Also included in his Records is his certificate of Discharge from the Militia stating he enrolled in 1859 (In fact, it looks more like 1857)

Could he really have enrolled in the Militia at age 15?

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Re: Minimum age for joining the militia and the Royal Engine

Postby Liz » 17 Jul 2013 01:15

Yes, see earlier discussions on the general issue of minimum age for enlistments - for members' ease of reference all related topics have now been merged and made a 'sticky' so they stay at the top of the list of topics.
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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Peter » 02 Aug 2013 02:19

Answers from Wagonner and zerostate in viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8472 to my question:

Re: Militia: Age of Enrollment?
by Waggoner » 01 Aug 2013 16:44;

Peter,

I did although the legal age was sixteen I recall reading that boys were reclassified men when they became sixteen during the War of 1812 period. So, I suspect that rule continued to be in effect. However, I shall be interested to see what the experts say.

All the best,

Gary
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Re: Militia: Age of Enrollment?

Yes - as with the regular army, if he attested to being old enough, and could pass the physical exam (i.e., was big enough) he would be judged as physically equivalent to an adult. No idea what the actual minimum age was before 1902 though.

If it transpired that the recruit was under age, just big enough to join, it was the responsibility of the parents to apply to the commanding general of the region and prove the boy's age to obtain a discharge. The responsibility was never the army or militia's in that case, as they had done their due diligence in making the recruit attest to their age, and physically examining them!

This came up in Parliament a couple of times in the late 19th century. In 1902, the age to join the militia was 17 (from Hansard).

As to whether boys were recruited as boys into the militia... I can find no obvious evidence either way.

Chris


Thanks Gary and Chris.

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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby grumpy » 08 Aug 2013 17:33

Slightly at a tangent but my notes may be found useful:

TERMS of Engagement, Line Infantry [not necessarily complete] 1806 to 1947

Year Terms Source

1806 until 1829 Life, or ‘limited service’, of seven years with up to two of seven year extensions up to 21 years Bulletin MHS No.237, Philip Haythornthwaite
1837 at least End service by purchase up to 7 years £20, thereafter sliding scale to 14 years £5, thereafter free, with enhancements up to 21 years, and enhancements for “distinguishing marks” ie. Good Conduct badges. KR 1837
Until 1847 For life or until medical discharge The Victorian Army at Home (VAH)
1847 10 years, re-engage to 21 years for pension VAH
1870 12 years, but normally split 6 years colours and 6 years reserve VAH
1870 6 years colours and 6 years reserve The Late Victorian Army
1873 6 years colours and 6 years on reserve or 12 years and no reserve … one or the other Through the Ranks to a Commission
1881 7 years colours and 5 years on reserve VAH
1902 May 3 years colours and 9 on reserve. Army Orders (AO) 117/02
1902 Jul Extensions for those on 3 years or 7 years initial engagement, can extend to 8 years or 12 years AO 159/02
1904 Proposed, not implemented: a ‘2 years with colours plus 6 years reserve’ engagement for Home, or ‘ 9 years with colours plus 3 year reserve’ for general service The Development of the British Army
1904 Nov Terms of service 9 years with colours and 3 years reserve AO 189/04
1905 2 years with colours and 10 years reserve for certain large regiments tentatively examined AO/204/05
1906 Sep to 1914 7 years with colours and 5 years reserve for all. Extensions to 7 years allowed AO 209/06
War 3 years or the duration, and also as above
1918/19 Various expedients to keep Army of Rhine up to strength
1922 Long service = 12 years
1924 7 and 5, or 3 and 9 Guards AO 446 Dec Aled Jones
1932 Guards 7 and 5 or 4 and 8 AO 142 August Aled Jones
1938 Long Service 12 years option 9 more for pension
1947 “normal” is 12 years, or 5 and 7 [sic] Army estimates Aled Jones

Note that Foot Guards for long periods used 3 and 9, as they had no reserve formations. These are not annotated above.
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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Peter » 10 Aug 2013 12:04

As it complements Grumpy’s, I’ve copied fv1620’s posting from viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8472.

WO Regs, 1807.jpg
WO Regs, 1807.jpg (148.15 KiB) Viewed 2341 times
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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Peter » 10 Aug 2013 12:05

Thanks Grumpy.

What I’m keen to establish is whether the Militia enrolment provisions duplicated the ‘Regulars’ enlistment provisions of the same time.

My curiousity is piqued by the above mentioned formal certificate of Discharge from the Militia on file …… together with the enlistee’s notation on his Attestation form.

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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Graham Stewart » 23 Aug 2013 20:00

scan0001 (Small).jpg
Militia Reg's 1880
scan0001 (Small).jpg (48.91 KiB) Viewed 2303 times

Don't know if this is way too late for you boys, but Militia Regs for 1880 clearly state, boys under the age of 14yrs couldn't be recruited.
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Re: Recruitment: minimum age, qualifications etc.

Postby Graham Stewart » 23 Aug 2013 22:10

scan0002 (Small).jpg
scan0002 (Small).jpg (50.79 KiB) Viewed 2299 times

Taken from Militia Regs 1896 the same ages were repeated in the "Pamphlet for Recruiters 1896".
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