Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Please post all research regarding individual Victorian soldiers and sailors here, including requests for information!

Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 04 Jan 2017 14:52

Happy new year all!
I just came across an engraved cigar case with a soldiers details on it.
Captain Robert Charles Holmes.
10th Hussars
Kirkee

He was Born in 1823 and died 1869 aged 45
So far i have found his sign up papers on TNA dated 1840 to the 59th Regiment of Foot. also notes 95th Regiment?
And many promotion records through the london Gazette which i am still working through now.
I am seeking any tips where to look for possible military records and service records, better still a possible photograph?
Also interested in the place Kirkee? as he was in service between 1840 and listed in the 1861 census as retired Captain.
It would be really good to put as much information together as possible with the case as i have also discovered his living relatives through Ancestry and will put it all together for them.

His father is also mentioned in records as The Late David Holmes Esq HMs 9th Foot Regiment. i have found a sign up record on TNA dated 1812, so also looking into him next?

Any advice greatly appreciated
Great Thanks
Andy
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 04 Jan 2017 15:38

Also curious on the emblem which looks like a crown with an arm sticking up holding something like a sword or lance possibly and the word VENTIS ?
I am hopeful it may be genuine as why fake such a personal item?
Thanks again.
Item currently in the post and when received i will be looking for hallmarks and hopefully authenticating its date and possibly silver?
FB_IMG_1483206971974.jpg
FB_IMG_1483206971974.jpg (64.48 KiB) Viewed 344 times
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Maureene » 05 Jan 2017 12:27

Kirkee is near Poona (now Pune) in India, in what was the Bombay Presidency.
See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Kirkee
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Kirkee

There are some National Archives officers service records WO 76 on the pay website findmypast, in the findmypast data set British Army Service Records, which are explained in the following link
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-w ... ce-records

Cheers
Maureen
Maureene
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 787
Joined: 02 Aug 2011 07:33

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 05 Jan 2017 15:42

Wonderful, thank you Maureen, I will look through them, TNA is such fun to navigate? Still getting my head round it.
Thanks again for your time in replying.
Andy
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby jf42 » 05 Jan 2017 17:05

Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg (89.6 KiB) Viewed 310 times


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2242
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby almaboy » 05 Jan 2017 21:02

I believe the 10th Hussars were stationed at Kirkee and Poona in December 1854,prior to being called for service in the Crimea.
Following a march to Bombay, a sea crossing to Suez via Aden, and an epic march across Egypt to Alexandria, the Regiment eventually arrived in the Crimea in April 1855.

As your man does not appear on the medal roll for the Crimea, he either sold out whilst still in India, or possibly chose to return to England.

Tony.
almaboy
New Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: 15 Feb 2009 17:29

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 05 Jan 2017 21:31

jf42 wrote:Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838


That is outstanding! Like a family coat of arms? How wonderful, is it a military thing of family crest etc perhaps?
Am very intrigued now?
Thanks for that very much.
Have more work to do now on Ancestry..
Thanks
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 05 Jan 2017 21:35

almaboy wrote:I believe the 10th Hussars were stationed at Kirkee and Poona in December 1854,prior to being called for service in the Crimea.
Following a march to Bombay, a sea crossing to Suez via Aden, and an epic march across Egypt to Alexandria, the Regiment eventually arrived in the Crimea in April 1855.

As your man does not appear on the medal roll for the Crimea, he either sold out whilst still in India, or possibly chose to return to England.

Tony.


That is interesting, from London gazette records I have in June 1861 noted he is is to serve as captain 2nd Norfolk rifle volunteer corps and also 1861 census says he is retired, lots on London gazette records to go through slowly piecing it together, dates etc to put his career in order?
Thanks for the details!
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby jf42 » 06 Jan 2017 10:33

Andy2015 wrote:
jf42 wrote:Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838


That is outstanding! Like a family coat of arms? How wonderful, is it a military thing of family crest etc perhaps?
Am very intrigued now?
Thanks for that very much.
Have more work to do now on Ancestry..
Thanks


The Coronet is known as a Naval Coronet, identifiable by the emblems which represent, alternately, the sail and stern of a ship.

'The naval coronet (Fig. 658), though but seldom granted now, was very popular at one time. In the latter part of the eighteenth and the early part of the nineteenth centuries, naval actions were constantly being fought, and in a large number of cases where the action of the officer in command was worthy of high praise and reward,"

The 'augmentation' as it was called was usually added to existing coats of arms. So the naval connections multiply.

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/hr/ ... uide23.htm

There were two notable naval personages of the name Holmes which might explain the arms depicted on the C19th cigar case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H ... vy_officer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holm ... vy_officer)

Whether they were related to your man, I'll leave you to explore.
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2242
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 06 Jan 2017 14:25

This coat of arms certainly does match your cigar case, so your Robert Holmes must come from the same line as John Holmes. However, the book plate for John is showing the "Coat of Arms", which is the entire shield topped by the crest. The family crest, in this case, is the armored arm extending from the crown and holding a harpoon of sorts (is it a harpoon on your cigar case or a sword?). Any direct descendant bearing the Holmes name, coming through the line entitled to this crest and arms would be allowed to use the family crest in this way. They can use it on any item they want, but they have to have been born into the family name with the name of Holmes. Daughters are allowed to use a crest, even after marriage, but their children are not entitled to the use of their crest or arms. A daughter's children would only be entitled to a crest or arms coming through their own father --- unless it is part of a very few cases where a name or arms can be passed through the female line. Very rare.

The fact that you cigar case only shows the crest and not the arms, I would guess that Robert comes through a branch that did not inherit the family estate. That said, he may just be a younger son, too.

Regards,
Sarah



Andy2015 wrote:
jf42 wrote:Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838


That is outstanding! Like a family coat of arms? How wonderful, is it a military thing of family crest etc perhaps?
Am very intrigued now?
Thanks for that very much.
Have more work to do now on Ancestry..
Thanks
User avatar
BingandNelsonFan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 08 Nov 2013 13:59
Location: Ohio, United States

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 06 Jan 2017 14:29

jf42 wrote:
Andy2015 wrote:
jf42 wrote:Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838


That is outstanding! Like a family coat of arms? How wonderful, is it a military thing of family crest etc perhaps?
Am very intrigued now?
Thanks for that very much.
Have more work to do now on Ancestry..
Thanks


The Coronet is known as a Naval Coronet, identifiable by the emblems which represent, alternately, the sail and stern of a ship.

'The naval coronet (Fig. 658), though but seldom granted now, was very popular at one time. In the latter part of the eighteenth and the early part of the nineteenth centuries, naval actions were constantly being fought, and in a large number of cases where the action of the officer in command was worthy of high praise and reward,"

The 'augmentation' as it was called was usually added to existing coats of arms. So the naval connections multiply.

http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/hr/ ... uide23.htm

There were two notable naval personages of the name Holmes which might explain the arms depicted on the C19th cigar case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H ... vy_officer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holm ... vy_officer)

Whether they were related to your man, I'll leave you to explore.



Thank you, it certainly looks like the naval coronet close up?

so much to look into?
now i have a cigar case, feels like silver, very heavy and engraved with..
R C Holmes, 10th Hussars, Kirkee, which seems to be Captain Robert Charles Holmes 1823-1869, 10th Hussars.
He joined the 59th Foot Regiment in 1840, retired a Captain by 1861, was in the 2nd Norfolk Rifle Volunteer Corps in 1861 and died aged 45 in 1869.
His father was an officer in the 9th Foot Reg, born 1783, joined 1812..
His grandfather on his mothers side was Sir Charles Price, 1st Baronet, 1747-1818, MP and former Lord Mayor of London who married a Mary Rugge in 1774 of apparent notable wealth and both notable peerage right up to the present.
The engraving has a potential Naval coronet with possible links to Holmes of Naval history dating back to 1640`s?
And the engraving of VENTIS and a bookplate of an author also Holmes, John Holmes 1758-1841.
Yet all on one cigar case....
Lots of trees on Ancestry with the above in and London Gazette records to translate?
Its gone pretty mental?
Crikeys!

Thanks for all your input?
Need to stop and see re calibrate from scratch and get organised?
Andy
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 06 Jan 2017 14:31

BingandNelsonFan wrote:This coat of arms certainly does match your cigar case, so your Robert Holmes must come from the same line as John Holmes. However, the book plate for John is showing the "Coat of Arms", which is the entire shield topped by the crest. The family crest, in this case, is the armored arm extending from the crown and holding a harpoon of sorts (is it a harpoon on your cigar case or a sword?). Any direct descendant bearing the Holmes name, coming through the line entitled to this crest and arms would be allowed to use the family crest in this way. They can use it on any item they want, but they have to have been born into the family name with the name of Holmes. Daughters are allowed to use a crest, even after marriage, but their children are not entitled to the use of their crest or arms. A daughter's children would only be entitled to a crest or arms coming through their own father --- unless it is part of a very few cases where a name or arms can be passed through the female line. Very rare.

The fact that you cigar case only shows the crest and not the arms, I would guess that Robert comes through a branch that did not inherit the family estate. That said, he may just be a younger son, too.

Regards,
Sarah

Hi, it is a Harpoon! will add a better photograph next....
Thanks

Andy2015 wrote:
jf42 wrote:Ventis is the Latin for 'by-' or 'with winds' and is possibly an abbreviation of Ventis secundus 'with favourable winds', a motto used by a number of families, including the Hoods, which led to it becoming, with unfortunate irony, the motto of H.M.S Hood.

Be that is it may, here is a bookplate of one John Holmes (1758-1841) who must have been a relation of the owner of the cigar case.
Ex libris John Holmes 1758-1841.jpg


https://www.flickr.com/photos/58558794@N07/5435043838


That is outstanding! Like a family coat of arms? How wonderful, is it a military thing of family crest etc perhaps?
Am very intrigued now?
Thanks for that very much.
Have more work to do now on Ancestry..
Thanks
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 06 Jan 2017 14:41

Andy2015 wrote:Thank you, it certainly looks like the naval coronet close up?

so much to look into?
now i have a cigar case, feels like silver, very heavy and engraved with..
R C Holmes, 10th Hussars, Kirkee, which seems to be Captain Robert Charles Holmes 1823-1869, 10th Hussars.
He joined the 59th Foot Regiment in 1840, retired a Captain by 1861, was in the 2nd Norfolk Rifle Volunteer Corps in 1861 and died aged 45 in 1869.
His father was an officer in the 9th Foot Reg, born 1783, joined 1812..
His grandfather on his mothers side was Sir Charles Price, 1st Baronet, 1747-1818, MP and former Lord Mayor of London who married a Mary Rugge in 1774 of apparent notable wealth and both notable peerage right up to the present.
The engraving has a potential Naval coronet with possible links to Holmes of Naval history dating back to 1640`s?
And the engraving of VENTIS and a bookplate of an author also Holmes, John Holmes 1758-1841.
Yet all on one cigar case....
Lots of trees on Ancestry with the above in and London Gazette records to translate?
Its gone pretty mental?
Crikeys!

Thanks for all your input?
Need to stop and see re calibrate from scratch and get organised?
Andy


Hi, again!

It's not quite as complicated as it sounds. :) Arms and crests seem very complicated, but once you get into them, there were strict rules about things --- and they are not too difficult to figure out. The fact that both of your crests are shown with the naval cornet means that the right to use that particular cornet was given to some ancestor they both have in common. It could have been one generation before or eight generations before. The fact that the Naval Cornet has not been replaced with an Earl's crown, you are not looking for any father's or grandfathers who have been granted that high a rank --- which might help to narrow the field.

VENTIS is the family motto, and that would date back to the original arms, so there is no problem having a soldier and an author sporting the same crest and motto.

I'm going to have a look and see if I can find anything. :) Be right back!
Sarah
User avatar
BingandNelsonFan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 08 Nov 2013 13:59
Location: Ohio, United States

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby Andy2015 » 06 Jan 2017 14:45

closeup...
20170106_133724.jpg
20170106_133724.jpg (96.02 KiB) Viewed 282 times
Andy2015
New Member
 
Posts: 44
Joined: 25 Nov 2015 22:07

Re: Researching Captain Robert Charles Holmes 10th Hussars

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 06 Jan 2017 14:49

Okay, that is definitely the same thing. :)

Am still having a look for the coat of arms and crest, but I ran across this little notice in the Bury and Norwich Post (28 Feb 1865, page 8). It mentions that the bankruptcy is waiting on info relating to Holmes' father's will and his marriage settlement. Obviously, the family is pretty well to do (at least in the earlier 19th century). Having a look at his father's will may offer some good clues.

Second clipping states that Holmes of was Great Yarmouth, Norfolk. That might help in locating him!

Sarah
Attachments
Holmes of Great Yarmouth Norfolk Chronicle 31 Jan 1863.JPG
Holmes of Great Yarmouth Norfolk Chronicle 31 Jan 1863.JPG (36.41 KiB) Viewed 281 times
Holmes Bankruptcy Burry and Norwich Post 28 Feb 1865 page 8.JPG
Holmes Bankruptcy Burry and Norwich Post 28 Feb 1865 page 8.JPG (40.97 KiB) Viewed 281 times
User avatar
BingandNelsonFan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 08 Nov 2013 13:59
Location: Ohio, United States

Next

Return to Researching Individual Soldiers & Sailors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest