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Postby Deb.R » 21 May 2017 09:26

Hello all my name is Deb and this forum was suggested to me by a researcher and so I hope by starting here you might be able to recommend where I should post my question.

I've been researching my family tree for about a year now so I'm still a newbie. My great grandmother Daisy Clark née Wade was born into a military family. She was born in 1890 as the illegitimate daughter of Isabella Caroline Wade (we don't know who her father was but it was always suggested he was from the Indian Military) her grandfather was Frederick Mayo Wade and his military life began early enlisting at 14, we have a lot of his records and know once he was discharged in India he returned to the UK and was still residing at Kingston Barracks for quite some time as 3 more children were baptised there. He was a color sergeant in the 2nd battalion of the 60th royal rifles. I had some help from the royal green jackets museum and they suggested Frederick may have remained on to train soldiers but I have no way of knowing.

His father was also with the same battalion of the royal rifles and was also a color sergeant. What I'm a bit confused about and wondered if anyone might offer suggestions is that it appears Joseph Wade was also discharged just a year prior to when he would have received a pension but it seems he may have been given a pay out. But even after discharge he's listed in the 1851 Irish census as being at the barracks he's a prison warder there and is buried at Arbor Hill military cemetery along with his daughter. His burial in 1863 just says sgt Jospeh Wade late of the 60th royal rifles. He was discharged in November 1841 according to muster rolls.

So my question is did this happen with soldiers being discharged and then remaining on in a private way for the military? ... it's quite a mystery for me. As his enlistment papers don't seem to be a available most of what we know is via muster rolls and births, marriages and cencus records (of which I can only find two in 1841 in Newbury Berkshire he's listed as a Jailor and in 1851 in Dublin at the cells in the barracks) everything I have found is on my ancestry tree.

If you could steer me in the best direction to ask my question I would greatly appreciate it.

Another of Jospehs sons also enlisted his daughter married a soldier and several of his grandsons also joined up.

Thank you
Deb
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Re: New member

Postby Mark » 22 May 2017 11:46

Welcome to the forum, Deb!

Mark
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 27 May 2017 04:52

Thank you Mark ... can you suggest a section where I should re ask my question :-)

Blessings
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Re: New member

Postby jf42 » 27 May 2017 11:20

Deb, greetings.

I am afraid I cant help you with your specific query re. your forbear's employmenyt after discharge, but if you go to the Board Index on the forum home page you will see in the fourth panel down Researching Individual Soldiers & Sailors. That will be the best place to start. There are forum members who are familiar with conditions of service, etc. and possibly practice in the KRRC as well, and someone should be able to help.

Good luck.
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Re: New member

Postby Frogsmile » 28 May 2017 16:39

Deb.R wrote:Hello all my name is Deb and this forum was suggested to me by a researcher and so I hope by starting here you might be able to recommend where I should post my question.

I've been researching my family tree for about a year now so I'm still a newbie. My great grandmother Daisy Clark née Wade was born into a military family. She was born in 1890 as the illegitimate daughter of Isabella Caroline Wade (we don't know who her father was but it was always suggested he was from the Indian Military) her grandfather was Frederick Mayo Wade and his military life began early enlisting at 14, we have a lot of his records and know once he was discharged in India he returned to the UK and was still residing at Kingston Barracks for quite some time as 3 more children were baptised there. He was a color sergeant in the 2nd battalion of the 60th royal rifles. I had some help from the royal green jackets museum and they suggested Frederick may have remained on to train soldiers but I have no way of knowing.

His father was also with the same battalion of the royal rifles and was also a color sergeant. What I'm a bit confused about and wondered if anyone might offer suggestions is that it appears Joseph Wade was also discharged just a year prior to when he would have received a pension but it seems he may have been given a pay out. But even after discharge he's listed in the 1851 Irish census as being at the barracks he's a prison warder there and is buried at Arbor Hill military cemetery along with his daughter. His burial in 1863 just says sgt Jospeh Wade late of the 60th royal rifles. He was discharged in November 1841 according to muster rolls.

So my question is did this happen with soldiers being discharged and then remaining on in a private way for the military? ... it's quite a mystery for me. As his enlistment papers don't seem to be a available most of what we know is via muster rolls and births, marriages and cencus records (of which I can only find two in 1841 in Newbury Berkshire he's listed as a Jailor and in 1851 in Dublin at the cells in the barracks) everything I have found is on my ancestry tree.

If you could steer me in the best direction to ask my question I would greatly appreciate it.

Another of Jospehs sons also enlisted his daughter married a soldier and several of his grandsons also joined up.

Thank you
Deb


Hello Deb, welcome to the forum.

The rank of colour sergeant was the then equivalent of today's company sergeant major and a very important position to hold. There were eight companies in an infantry battalion at that time and each had a colour sergeant as the senior non-commissioned rank who acted as the company commander's right hand man. As such he had to be numerate and literate (unusual at that time), because he kept the company 'nominal roll' book and called the roll to ascertain casualties after battle, as well as administering the company weekly pay parades. He also maintained a record of the company's equipment, arms, ammunition, rations and water. In addition he ensured that routine, daily written orders from the commander, were posted at a central place, and organised their reading out loud for those who were illiterate. In battle he worked with the commander of the company to ensure the efficient resupply of sub-units (platoons and sections) within the company. It was often the pinnacle of a man's career, as above him there were only a few posts offering promotion and they were among the staff of each battalion's headquarters, the two most senior that he might reasonably aspire to, being the quarter-master-sergeant and the sergeant major of battalion. Clearly, only so many colour sergeants could be successful in achieving elevation to just two posts.

Such career soldiers were often reluctant to return to civilian life once they were 'time expired' (i.e. had completed their pensionable service) and recognising this the British Army had a number of sinecure type jobs that made good use of these men's experience providing that they were of good character, still fit and not worn out (which many were through climate, disease and injury). It was an official policy to allow men to apply for the last 2-years of their service in a post close to where they intended to retire (canny men would choose somewhere close to a large garrison) and, providing that it was in the overall interests of the service, this would often be permitted. By far the most common role was to act as a Musketry Instructor for the auxiliary units of the Militia and Volunteer Force (or yeomanry if cavalry) and many men chose that course. Other posts were barracks-wardens and barracks-masters (the latter being the more senior positions), who were responsible for managing the infrastructure of barracks and dealing with repairs and utilities, such as fuel (coal) and light (candles and lamps). Some became pay or stores clerks (civilian) supporting the Army Pay, or Stores Departments (APD and ASD). Other men became warders of military prisons, which sounds like the avenue chosen by your forebear.

From 1846 district military prisons were opened in Chatham, Gosport, Devonport, Weedon, Greenlaw, Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Athlone and, later Aldershot. These were all places where military warders (although technically 'civilians') were employed, many of whom (but not all) were former regular soldiers who were equipped and clothed in accordance with army clothing regulations. You can read in much more detail about how these military prisons came about at the following link if you are interested: http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/Burrougs.pdf
Such employment of senior, former regular soldiers, enabled them to gain secure employment as a reward for faithful service, although it could mean that a proportion of their pension income was forfeited by the offset of their wage as warders, which of course suited the public exchequer.

Footnote: It is an interesting point that even in the relatively small force that comprises the British Army today, a small unit of military detention warders is still retained: http://www.army.mod.uk/agc/provost/31927.aspx

P.S. As regards your great great grandfather, a very large number of Irishmen became contract soldiers (highly regulated mercenaries) in the so-called 'European' regiments of the Honourable East India Company. After 1860, these regiments became absorbed by the British regular army, several of them with Irish titles like the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and Royal Munster Fusiliers. Bear in mind that children born to 'European' soldiers in India will not be recorded on UK censuses but they are often recorded in surviving birth registers from the Indian Colonial authorities now deposited in the UK. A superb resource for beginning to trace these can be found here: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Main_Page
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 29 May 2017 16:38

Wow ... thanks so much! I really appreciate your reply and look forward to digesting it more in the morning. Really gives me a bit of an insight into Joseph's life and perhaps his choice as to his staying on in Dublin as a prison warden. Was obviously not the easiest life losing three chikdren two as youngsters and one as a soldier in India ... but one it seems to be proud of.

Really aprciate th detail you've given in to both Jospeh and Frederick's rank as a colour sergeant and what that meant. I shall print that up and add to jospehs file. Another one of his descendants recently contacted me and surprised his mother with detail of her Wade ancestors. So I'm sure he too will be very appreciative of your information.

I shall make myself a cuppa in the morning and re read. As it's almost tomorrow here in Aus.

Thank you!
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Deb
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Re: New member

Postby Frogsmile » 29 May 2017 18:25

Deb.R wrote:Wow ... thanks so much! I really appreciate your reply and look forward to digesting it more in the morning. Really gives me a bit of an insight into Joseph's life and perhaps his choice as to his staying on in Dublin as a prison warden. Was obviously not the easiest life losing three chikdren two as youngsters and one as a soldier in India ... but one it seems to be proud of.

Really aprciate th detail you've given in to both Jospeh and Frederick's rank as a colour sergeant and what that meant. I shall print that up and add to jospehs file. Another one of his descendants recently contacted me and surprised his mother with detail of her Wade ancestors. So I'm sure he too will be very appreciative of your information.

I shall make myself a cuppa in the morning and re read. As it's almost tomorrow here in Aus.

Thank you!
Blessing
Deb


Greetings to you in Aus, Deb, I am pleased to assist. I have two generations of 'rellies' in NSW, one from post WW1 and the other from post WW2, so I feel a strong affinity. You might like to know that the picture I posted with a sign saying Military Prison is the actual place in Dublin where your GGF served.
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 01 Jun 2017 11:04

Oh wow! Well that's interesting ... Jospeh Wade is certainly turning out to be an interesting fellow he was my 4 x great grandfather we are thinking now via the muster rolls he was born in London as enlisted there in 1820 (b1803)and it says he was from St George's?
And was a slate maker. We have found a baptisim for a Joseph Wade St George's the Martyr Southwark Surrey. Going to investigate that further. He was made acting sergeant by early 1829 . Seems he was in Corfu in Nov of 1840 when he was discharged no reason is given but he received a payout of 307 pounds.

We find them in Newbury Berkshire in 1841 then in Jersey 1842 and then they must have gone to Dublin after that where two more children are baptised and Frederick Mayo Wade (my 3 x GGF) and his brother Charles enlist. So your information on ex soldiers taking on jobs as prison guards seems to fit in perfectly.

So would Jospeh have been able to read and write before he joined at age 17/18? All his children were also literate and obviously trained in music as it's been suggested Frederick would have been a bugler and Charles it does state in 1871 is a bandsman. He died in 1876 and is buried in Meerut, Bengal. Would soldiers buried there have marked graves? Frederick on his last cencus before his death (1901 cencus)is listed a musician and own account living in Kingston Surrey.

What I found curious about Fredrick is that he is discharged in India in 1872 due to poor health but 3 of his children born back in England are baptised together in 1876 and abode is listed as Kingston Barracks Surrey ... so he too it seems remained in some role with the 60th way after his discharge.

My own great grandfather Ted Clark (husband to Daisy Wade) migrated to West Australia from Stroud Gloucester after WW1 and my mother as a 13 year old came to Australia with her family after WW2 :-)

I'm finding learning all of this very interesting so thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I need to save the photos you've shared so I can add them to Jospehs file.

blessings
Deb
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Re: New member

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 01 Jun 2017 18:02

Hi, Deb!

I just sent you a Private Message about this. :)

Regards,
Sarah
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 02 Jun 2017 03:28

Thanks Sarah ... although I can't find it :-)

I finally found private messages but doesn't seem to be one in there?

Blessings
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Re: New member

Postby Frogsmile » 02 Jun 2017 11:46

Deb.R wrote:Oh wow! Well that's interesting ... Jospeh Wade is certainly turning out to be an interesting fellow he was my 4 x great grandfather we are thinking now via the muster rolls he was born in London as enlisted there in 1820 (b1803)and it says he was from St George's?
And was a slate maker. We have found a baptisim for a Joseph Wade St George's the Martyr Southwark Surrey. Going to investigate that further. He was made acting sergeant by early 1829 . Seems he was in Corfu in Nov of 1840 when he was discharged no reason is given but he received a payout of 307 pounds.

We find them in Newbury Berkshire in 1841 then in Jersey 1842 and then they must have gone to Dublin after that where two more children are baptised and Frederick Mayo Wade (my 3 x GGF) and his brother Charles enlist. So your information on ex soldiers taking on jobs as prison guards seems to fit in perfectly.

So would Jospeh have been able to read and write before he joined at age 17/18? All his children were also literate and obviously trained in music as it's been suggested Frederick would have been a bugler and Charles it does state in 1871 is a bandsman. He died in 1876 and is buried in Meerut, Bengal. Would soldiers buried there have marked graves? Frederick on his last cencus before his death (1901 cencus)is listed a musician and own account living in Kingston Surrey.

What I found curious about Fredrick is that he is discharged in India in 1872 due to poor health but 3 of his children born back in England are baptised together in 1876 and abode is listed as Kingston Barracks Surrey ... so he too it seems remained in some role with the 60th way after his discharge.

My own great grandfather Ted Clark (husband to Daisy Wade) migrated to West Australia from Stroud Gloucester after WW1 and my mother as a 13 year old came to Australia with her family after WW2 :-)

I'm finding learning all of this very interesting so thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I need to save the photos you've shared so I can add them to Jospehs file.

blessings
Deb


Hello again Deb,

Your two forebears were certainly in a famous regiment. The 60th was first formed from settlers in America and quickly became expert at forest fighting and unconventional tactics, although they were trained in the usual fashion too. It later became one of two, large specialised regiments, armed exclusively with slow loading, but highly accurate rifles, as opposed to fast loading, but inaccurate smooth bore muskets. This is relevant because it required special training with an emphasis on individual action, 'marksmanship' (i.e. more careful aiming) and initiative by every soldier. Against the norm of that time, they were encouraged to think for themselves tactically, within the broad direction of their officers.

To aid camouflage both these rifle regiments wore a very dark, 'rifle' green uniform and generally moved ahead of the main body of troops as 'skirmishers', and frequently formed a rear guard when withdrawing. Because individual sub units (companies) were often detached to support more conventional troops, there had to be quite a lot of riflemen and during most of the period that you are interested in the two regiments each had four battalions (i.e. 1st/60th, 2nd/60th and so on) of as many as 900 or so per unit. I enclose a few colour pictures showing the type of uniform that your grandfathers' wore, notice how it always had scarlet trim. The one with the pale trousers shows Joseph's uniform as a young man, and the darker trouser's shows Frederick's. You can see how their hat, called a 'shako', had changed.

For most of the period the 60th were equipped with the 'Baker Rifle' with a special, sword shaped bayonet. Other special features were a faster marching pace than conventional infantry, the use of a bugle/horn (rather than a drum) to issue orders, and no use of the regimental banners ('colours') that are carried by conventional infantry. Despite this absence of 'colours' the senior sergeant in each company was ranked as 'colour sergeant', in the same way as his counterparts in other infantry units.

The 2nd/60th had a strong tradition of service in India and gave especially notable and arduous service during the Indian (Sepoy) Mutiny of 1857. I wonder if Frederick served with the battalion then. Your information regarding Joseph's final posting in Corfu in 1840, is confirmed at the following link, where it shows that the 2nd/60th were still there in November of that year, but under orders to move to Jamaica: http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/n ... 840KAA.pdf
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Re: New member

Postby Frogsmile » 02 Jun 2017 12:39

The 'Parish' (a small Christian administrative area) of St George-the-Martyr, was/is one of five in the poverty stricken borough of Southwark, that sits alongside the River Thames, opposite the wealthy, 'square mile' of the City of London. It is still a poor area today.

Given that Joseph seems to have enlisted very young, my guess is that he had perhaps been a 'parish waif' who had been taken in by the Parish Workhouse. At the time of Joseph's childhood, the workhouse at St George-the-Martyr (opened in 1729) seems to have been a good one (although not so in 1865), where there was a distinct effort to teach children to read, write and numerate. You can read about it here: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Southwark/
I think that he might have been there, as it would explain his literacy and because it was common for workhouse boys to be encouraged into the army as 'band boys', 'boy buglers' and later, other trades too. They generally made good soldiers, having become inured to relative hardship and used to institutionalised, ordered lives. There is more about the parish here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George ... _Southwark
You can search Workhouse baptsisms here: https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Southw ... y,_England

Turning to Frederick (and Charles too), they would both have been required to attend daily the 'regimental school' that was compulsory within each battalion. The 60th were quite forward thinking in this regard and always had a schoolmaster, even before this was regularised via the formation of a Corps of Army Schoolmasters. As well as reading, writing and arithmetic (and sewing, etc. for girls) there were often opportunities to learn music and then enlist as boy musicians (as above) within the same battalion as their fathers. You can see the stations of the 60th in 1872 at this link, where it shows that the 2nd Battalion, still in India, were in Bengal: http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/n ... 872CAA.pdf

The movement to Kingston upon Thames is very interesting and not associated with the 60th as you have thought. In 1881 a large reorganisation of the army came into effect and all the numbered regiments were given names (the 60th becoming the King's Royal Rifle Corps). Those with just one battalion and a numeric seniority above 25th were merged with another in the same category to create a single unit with two battalions and a focused area to recruit from.

To achieve the new policy each of the regiments needed a 'home barracks' (known as a permanent depot) and preparation for this, via a nation wide building scheme, had taken place between 1874 and 1878. The idea was that one battalion would be overseas and one in Britain and both would be sustained with recruits from the new base . The barracks for Kingston-upon-Thames was built between 1874 and 1876 and allocated to the 31st and 70th Regiments, who in the change of 1881 became the East Surrey Regiment. It seems to me very likely that Frederick became a 'barracks warden' whilst this barrack's construction was still taking place and that he continued in that role, or some other, such as canteen manager after it was built. Both roles were often filled by former colour sergeants. You can learn about the barracks here:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Barra ... pon_Thames
2. http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/de ... ts20.shtml
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Re: New member

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 02 Jun 2017 14:38

Deb.R wrote:Thanks Sarah ... although I can't find it :-)

I finally found private messages but doesn't seem to be one in there?

Blessings
Deb


Oops! Don't know what happened there, but I have now re-sent it to you. If it still doesn't show up, just let me know. :)

Sarah
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 02 Jun 2017 15:09

I can't thank you enough for all the information you have given me and I shall look forward to once again re reading it with my morning cuppa. I've wondered what their uniforms may have looked like!

Frederick was indeed in India at that time ... the museum people confirmed he was awarded the South African medal, the Indian mutiny medal and the China medal and I have those documents from find my past and ancestry.

And you've triggered a memory which I will also check ... I think Frederick's sons were with the East Surrey regiment so what you've said makes sense.

Something else has popped up ... one of Joseph's daughters Selina Matilda Wade ... this was a story with a plot twist that I hadn't picked up on until recently ... as I didn't know she existed as the Irish record for her baptism was mistranscribed ... but she married a man called Francis Edwin who happens to be Frederick's wife's brother ... Francis remarries at some point and is listed as widowed ... however Selina isn't dead she's alive and well as Selina Matilda Dunbar ... although I can't not find a marriage for her to Alexander Dunbar so I suspect they didn't legally marry. But I note on her marriage to Francis she lists her fathers occupation as school master which I thought rather odd ... but now with th information you've given perhaps at some point during Jospehs time at the barracks in Dublin he may have taught school?

You've given me much food for thought.

Your time is greatly appreciated
Blessings
Deb
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Re: New member

Postby Deb.R » 02 Jun 2017 15:30

BingandNelsonFan wrote:Hi, Deb!

I just sent you a Private Message about this. :)

Regards,
Sarah


Ok it came through and I replied although my reply seems to be sitting in the outbox :| so let me know of mine doesn't show up as I'm wondering what I've done wrong ....
Blessings
Deb
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