Enlistment Rules

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Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 21 Feb 2015 15:02

I asked the question below in another topic thread, but perhaps because it was in the wrong place, it was missed, so excuse me for asking again, but :


It would appear that when my Grandfather enlisted with the Tenth Royal Hussars at Canterbury in 1879, he had already attained two stripes whilst serving with the 61st Foot where he seems to have joined up in 1876. I think his parents bought him out, but he clearly didn't fancy life outside the military. Having said that, it does seem that he never told of his previous service when he join the Tenth, because he appears to have enlisted under his second name of Roland, where he was christened John Roland, and he used 1860 as his birthday, instead of his real one of 1858. He had a younger brother who was born in 1860 ,but died in 1874.

I am guessing that he might not have been allowed to enlist in the Tenth had they know he had left the 61st Foot by purchase a few weeks before. Perhaps someone might enlighten me on the rules surrounding this.

Richard
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Les Waring » 21 Feb 2015 15:22

Richard
I've got an even stranger case. A man who bought himself out of the 32nd Foot in late 1859, when the regiment arrived back from India, enlisted in the Lancashire Militia a few weeks later and enrolled in the 58th Foot 12 days after that, where he spent the rest of his army career,

Admittedly

1. The 58th were just back from NSW and New Zealand, and were seriously under strength, so weren't probably too particular on checking the credentials of a new man.
2. Having a Lucknow OD on the strength might have 'looked good'.
3. Somewhere during his time with the 58th his first name changed from John to Joseph, the latter being the name which appears on his discharge papers

but it is certainly the same man.

Best

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby grumpy » 23 Feb 2015 15:45

rclpillinger wrote:I asked the question below in another topic thread, but perhaps because it was in the wrong place, it was missed, so excuse me for asking again, but :


It would appear that when my Grandfather enlisted with the Tenth Royal Hussars at Canterbury in 1879, he had already attained two stripes whilst serving with the 61st Foot where he seems to have joined up in 1876. I think his parents bought him out, but he clearly didn't fancy life outside the military. Having said that, it does seem that he never told of his previous service when he join the Tenth, because he appears to have enlisted under his second name of Roland, where he was christened John Roland, and he used 1860 as his birthday, instead of his real one of 1858. He had a younger brother who was born in 1860 ,but died in 1874.

I am guessing that he might not have been allowed to enlist in the Tenth had they know he had left the 61st Foot by purchase a few weeks before. Perhaps someone might enlighten me on the rules surrounding this.

Richard


I suspect there was no problem in enlisting under a false name [many did], nor enlisting afresh once his contract had been ended [under the existing rules] by payment offered and received.
Where he may have fallen foul of regulations was in concealing his previous service. On enlistment, a specific question was asked regarding previous service. Failure to declare might well result in dismissal.
I write the above without an in-depth scrutiny of the regulations at the time, but from an overall knowledge of how the army managed these matters over a long period.
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 23 Feb 2015 21:08

Hello Grumpy

That is very interesting, and I have often wondered at what stage he did declare his previous service, because the Regiment clearly knew about it by the time Colonel Barnes wrote his valedictory for the XRH Gazette. It may well be that he declared it when he joined up, and there may be another reason entirely why he changed his name; perhaps he just hated being called "John" all the time.

I can't really believe that there would be a problem re-enlisting in another regiment after having just paid the Army hard-earned money to leave. The Forces are clearly the only winner in such circumstances.

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Frogsmile » 24 Feb 2015 00:03

I fear that the point is being completely missed here. The Army was and still is very strong regarding the knowing statement of falsehoods (telling lies). The offence was a prevalent one and known as a false attestation in that the previous service had been denied. It became especially common with men claiming cash bounties and then absconding only to reenlist under a false name with a different unit.
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 24 Feb 2015 21:15

That is my point Frogsmile. Clearly it was, and still is, a serious offence to join under presentation of falsehoods, The Regiment, as I have already recently said, knew about his previous service, and my question is "How would the Army have regarded someone re-joining who, only two weeks before, had bought themselves out of another Regiment".

On reflexion it is also clear that the Regiment knew about his birthdate. In fact, there is an article in the Gazette which claims he has three birthdays... official, natural and Regimental. What they don't appear to have known about is his change of name. I suppose that if he wanted to be known by his second name, then that is for them to decide. If he did withhold this information, however, and it came out later, there appears to have been no consequences.

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Frogsmile » 25 Feb 2015 15:19

rclpillinger wrote:That is my point Frogsmile. Clearly it was, and still is, a serious offence to join under presentation of falsehoods, The Regiment, as I have already recently said, knew about his previous service, and my question is "How would the Army have regarded someone re-joining who, only two weeks before, had bought themselves out of another Regiment".

On reflexion it is also clear that the Regiment knew about his birthdate. In fact, there is an article in the Gazette which claims he has three birthdays... official, natural and Regimental. What they don't appear to have known about is his change of name. I suppose that if he wanted to be known by his second name, then that is for them to decide. If he did withhold this information, however, and it came out later, there appears to have been no consequences.

R

I misunderstood you R. When a man either, completed his engagement, or purchased his discharge, then providing he was released with a good character assessment, he was free to re-engage with any so other part of the army for which he was eligible. He could also change his name by legal means. It was only by subsequently withholding that historical information that he would be committing an offence. Recruiting was always a problem for the Victorian Army and as long as a man had a proven pedigree on re-engagement he would be accepted with open arms.
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 27 Aug 2016 21:17

I have revived this topic because I have just made a new discovery of the circumstances of my Grandfather's enlistment.

As I have explained in an earlier piece in this topic, my Grandfather was originally serving with the 61st Foot for some two years, and appears to have had a fairly successful time with them as he had already obtained the rank of Corporal. Then for some reason he, according to his valedictory 35 years later, bought himself out and two weeks later joined the Tenth Hussars at Canterbury.

I have just read an article in the XRH Gazette dated 1928, where a soldier in the 18th Hussars reports the detail of his transfer to the Tenth in the same draft:

I had had some few years ' service with the 18th Hussars, when, on stable parade, one evening during the later seventies,
and in course of the customary reading of Regimental Orders for the next day, there came the announcement of the loss
of a squadron of the Tenth . To make up for this, ten volunteers were called for from each of certain light cavalry regiments
at that time on home service. The Tenth were then on active service in Afghanistan : and from subsequent details given, we learned that in the course of an attempt to cross the Cabul River on a very dark night, and at what had been supposed to he a point so shallow as to make this safe, there had somehow been a misunderstanding, for the squadron went forward into water not only quite deep, but a rushing torrent as well . Moving under service conditions, men and horses alike would necessarily
be under anything but light order, the force of the torrent, however, was such as to carry the horses off their feet . The
men, terribly handicapped as to swimming, had but little chance of anything else than being kicked to death or so
injured as to be rendered helpless in this way, and then sink.


Returning through the Khyber Pass from Afghanistan the Regiment lost some 47 men to cholera to compound this earlier loss.

I wonder if my Grandfather also answered this call to replace the lost numbers in Rawal Pindi at this time. Both he and the writer, J. W. D. Turner, were on the same ship, the "Old transport ship of the Indian Government, the Malabar"

My question now is would Grandpa have had to buy himself out of the 61st Foot before joining up with the Tenth Royal Hussars, perhaps because his regiment was a Foot not a Cavalry regiment, or is the timing just co-incidental, always assuming that money did change hands? I wonder if anybody has a speculative thoughts on this?

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Frogsmile » 30 Aug 2016 11:12

I don't believe there were any rules preventing a man who had purchased his discharge from one part of the army re-enlisting with another providing he had a good record and a convincing rationale as to why he had changed his mind. The recruiting sergeants were always looking for likely men and, as your GGF had been a corporal and presumably with an exemplary record, he would have been seen as a plum recruit of good standing.
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 30 Aug 2016 17:11

Frogsmile, thankyou for your reply; I am always pleased to see your name as the last post against my topics!

Firstly, Major Pillinger is my Grandfather rather than my Great-Grandfather. He was born in 1858 and was sixty five years old when my Father was born, and my Grandmother was twenty. He was living in Bombay at the time and she went out for a holiday with him, as they were distantly related. Something about the atmosphere at the beach parties my Grandmother used to tell us!

Anyway, when the notice was exhibited looking for replacements to a cavalry regiment would you expect that they would be sent to foot as well as cavalry regiments or do you think this could just be by word of mouth? Do you think there might be a record of such advertisements anywhere?

As I have said in another topic, I am going to the Horsepower Museum in September and might have a look to see if there is any record of this.

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Frogsmile » 31 Aug 2016 12:51

rclpillinger wrote:Frogsmile, thankyou for your reply; I am always pleased to see your name as the last post against my topics!

Firstly, Major Pillinger is my Grandfather rather than my Great-Grandfather. He was born in 1858 and was sixty five years old when my Father was born, and my Grandmother was twenty. He was living in Bombay at the time and she went out for a holiday with him, as they were distantly related. Something about the atmosphere at the beach parties my Grandmother used to tell us!

Anyway, when the notice was exhibited looking for replacements to a cavalry regiment would you expect that they would be sent to foot as well as cavalry regiments or do you think this could just be by word of mouth? Do you think there might be a record of such advertisements anywhere?

As I have said in another topic, I am going to the Horsepower Museum in September and might have a look to see if there is any record of this.

Richard


Sorry for the familial gaffe Richard, your true relationship is noted.

As regards the notice seeking volunteers, such 'notices' would have appeared in formation level 'routine orders' and these were generally repeated in regimental/battalion orders so that the maximum audience was reached. This was a routine and long-standing practice that proved very effective. Indeed it is still used today. Thus such notices would have been seen in all the units within a given garrison whether they be foot, horse, gunner or other. Requests for 'volunteers' were not uncommon. Although it was possible for a man to formally transfer from one 'arm' to another (the 'process' laid down in QRs/KR for the Army) but the process was very slow and any man in a hurry and with the necessary wherewithal might well purchase his discharge and then re-enlist with the unit requiring volunteers.

In your GF time the literacy had become quite good due to the education act having created a generation with basic learning and, as a result, it was no longer compulsory for soldiers to attend the regimental school. In general the men could read their own routine orders, whereas previously they had been read out by the duty NCO at a daily parade (although this was probably retained in the infantry for quite some time).

I have seen a few routine orders from that period due to men having retained a copy in their military kit (sold at auction) that mentioned them personally, usually as a result of attendance on a training course and the announced result, but few otherwise have survived. It was usually only the documentary changes in regulations, or equipment specifications, that were archived and some of these do survive.
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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby rclpillinger » 14 Sep 2016 14:15

Thankyou Frogsmile, that has cleared much up in my ever-questioning head.

In all probability my Grandfather, whose Foot Regiment had recently returned from Malta I believe, read the notice and decided that he had had enough of having to move everywhere on foot in a Foot Regiment, and thought he might give riding a horse a go. As he was then a Sergeant I expect he might have had a few quid to buy himself out, nip home, near Bristol, for a couple of weeks and then go to Canterbury to join up with the Tenth. If he couldn't afford the fees to get released, I guess his parents, who were from a professional class, would have chipped in for him.

I expect that over the years, until his valedictory was written 35 years later, this story would likely have been embellished a little, to the point where he tried civi street for a fortnight and then fell back into ranks.

As ever

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Re: Enlistment Rules

Postby Frogsmile » 15 Sep 2016 12:33

rclpillinger wrote:Thankyou Frogsmile, that has cleared much up in my ever-questioning head.

In all probability my Grandfather, whose Foot Regiment had recently returned from Malta I believe, read the notice and decided that he had had enough of having to move everywhere on foot in a Foot Regiment, and thought he might give riding a horse a go. As he was then a Sergeant I expect he might have had a few quid to buy himself out, nip home, near Bristol, for a couple of weeks and then go to Canterbury to join up with the Tenth. If he couldn't afford the fees to get released, I guess his parents, who were from a professional class, would have chipped in for him.

I expect that over the years, until his valedictory was written 35 years later, this story would likely have been embellished a little, to the point where he tried civi street for a fortnight and then fell back into ranks.

As ever

Richard


I think that all sounds eminently likely Richard.
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