Brunswick bayonet help!

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Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 13 Feb 2017 15:06

I hope someone will be able to shed some light on the matter. I bought the bayonet from a auction in Canada but I live in Ireland! I think this is a 2nd issue Brunswick Volunteer bayonet, but has a modification which I can not find a reference to. Overall length is 26.75" or 679mm blade length is 22.1" or 561mm. The side of the grip with the mortise slot has been flattened and counter stamped.with the mark N S over 51 over 8 would like to know which unit this is. Same on the otherside of the grip but this time its B over underscore 174. On the pommel the number 34 and also six lines in to lots of 3. My understanding is that the lines are aling marks to the gun the bayonet was used on, and the gun number was 34.
I have posted this in a few other sites with little success altho I did think it might have been used in the US civil war, but the guys who are in the know there, say that if its not British it might be Russian. help most welcome.....paul.

I cant seem to upload pics ......so here is a link to the pics on the US Civil war site. Sorry about that, and I hope it does not put you of looking. If anyone can tell me how to reduce the pic quality I might be able to post my next one on here.....paul

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/brunswi ... et.131234/
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby Rural53 » 14 Feb 2017 00:32

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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 14 Feb 2017 09:34

Rural53 many thanks for doing that for me.......paul
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 05:53

Did you find it at Maynards auction in BC? The markings I do not recognize as Canadian. The modification may well have been done to fit any number of older arms the US had during the Civil War or earlier such as the Mexican-American War.
You would have to try fitting the bayonet to muskets the Americans used or wait to find a reference for it. Try searching American museums for clues.
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby RobD » 15 Feb 2017 09:45

Could the bayonet have come from the Nepal armoury, whose inventory was bought by IMA? Reason I ask is that all the Mertini Henry rifles are stamped NS under the rearsight.
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 16:35

I believe Rob may have it. The filed grip was possibly done to make it fit a Nepalese made firearm. The push release is not correct but appears to be a replacement. Try looking on IMA USA website for similar bayonets since they bought the Nepal armoury.http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/edged- ... onets.html
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby A.Roads » 16 Feb 2017 08:20

I do not think it is Nepalese, they are much more crudely made. It could be a Russian Luttich rifle bayonet, very similar to the British Brunswick. Are there any markings on the hilt of the blade?
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby Will Mathieson » 16 Feb 2017 15:15

I almost forgot that there were many constabulary Brunswick and volunteer bayonets.
Page 84 of British and Commonwealth Bayonets shows a Brunswick bayonet with the early style of release button.
The Russian ones were made in Belgium.

The marking to me makes no sense the 51 being a much higher number than 8 but placed directly under the NS. Usually regiments initials over regimental number over rack or weapon number.
I have modern number and letter stamps that look just like what is stamped here. Museum marking or re enactors? Who knows?
Most likely a recent attempt to fit the bayonet to a musket on hand.
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 16 Feb 2017 22:53

just back from a long trip so off to bed! will answer in the morning......many thanks to all of you.....paul
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 17 Feb 2017 15:27

Well Gents....time to answer some of the questions, A.Roads= There are 3 lines markings on the edge of the blade.like \/| with the V towards the hilt.
Will Matieson,= Yes I did buy it from Maynards in Canada back in November I think it was. Now to the markings on the grips, I dont think they are new as I dont think the flat section is new, this is because the patina on the punched letters is the same as the whole grip and when you look at it under a strong lenz you can see the age of the dirt/dust build up within the numbers.
Robd= I have not seen the N S markings on Nepalese rifles, so can not pass any comment. But what would be nice to know if the size and style of the lettering is it the same. The height of the letters on the grips is 4mm or 1/8" I did think it was a unit from the US civil War, so put it up on a site of theirs. There was a lot of discussion about the bayonet and the feeling was it was not a US unit, but could be British or Russian. But as A.Roads says it might be Russian, so its a new route to look at. Unit then it will stay as a Volunteer blade, British, and bayonet Number 90 in my collection. I do thank you all for you comments. I have a different bayonet from a Volunteer unit. in doing my research I have found one that was sold in 2005 which has the same marks except the gun number. I have tried to track the other bayonet down as it would be so good to have two bayonets from the same unit after all the years have gone by. The Unit is 7.A.D.M.S.C. with a gun number 68.that is stamped on the pummel of Lancaster sword Bayonet.
I was just about to post and looked at the numbers again...The B underscore 174 now looks continental to me funny how the mind can play games with you!
So once again many thanks so far.......paul.
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby Will Mathieson » 17 Feb 2017 17:23

The Brunswick marking is still puzzling. Can you picture the lock spring or top of the grip? The screw head appears pronounced.
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 17 Feb 2017 20:30

I am just about to go away for the weekend so will try to do the photos on Monday......paul
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 20 Feb 2017 05:01

Your bayo has the button configuration and handle/crossguard of the 1837 model, not the 1848 second pattern as you initially stated. It has been modified. It may be an attempt to make a batch of 1837 bayos from the 1848 second pattern. The locking bar was different on the two guns and were not interchangeable.

Note this altered hilt image I got off the web.....

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

Now note the locking bar types......

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 20 Feb 2017 05:22

Here is a first pattern 1837 Brunswick. NOTE THE BAYONET BAR AT MUZZLE!!!! The Bayonet bar was soon brought back in the barrel because the muzzle blast was releasing the bayonet latch.

http://www.ima-usa.com/original-brunswi ... plete.html
Here are images the newer bayo bar set back from the muzzle.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

Could these modification be made to attach the bayo to another model Brunswick?

Is the small groove on the pommel of this modified Brunswick, meant to offer clearance for the forward sling screw and swivel?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0
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Re: Brunswick bayonet help!

Postby timeout » 20 Feb 2017 10:50

Hi Ed....many thanks for the pics showing the two different "Bar fixings ". The reason I thought it was 2nd issue model was because in British & Commonwealth Bayonets it shows my button on a experimental Brunswick Sword Bayonet, then for the 1837 pattern the buttons have a mushroom head. That said it does show a very similar button on a early volunteer brunswick. Then on the 1848 the button is on the top of the grips. But as my button points down as in the 1837 pattern it must be one of them. It also says that many button types can be found on the volunteer bayonets. There is no mention of the flattened part of the grips. Do you know why this is? To my way of thinking it must be so it can attach to a different rifle, but which one? .......paul
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