Abyssinian Expedition

For anything else of relevance not covered by the topics above.

Abyssinian Expedition

Postby acanthus » 28 Apr 2017 02:50

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can name any of the officers in this photo, apart from Napier who is facing down at a chart with dividers in his hand.

In particular I'm trying to identify Colonel George Malcolm who commanded the 2nd Division.

Would also be interested to learn if anyone knows of any photos of General Sir George Malcolm, G.C.B.
Attachments
The_National_Archives_UK_-_CO_1069-5-107_cropped Napier & Staff Abyssinia.jpg
The_National_Archives_UK_-_CO_1069-5-107_cropped Napier & Staff Abyssinia.jpg (77.12 KiB) Viewed 800 times
acanthus
Senior Member
 
Posts: 368
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 14:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby Redcoat 57 » 28 Apr 2017 13:39

The only one I know is Captain Speedy, standing second from right wearing native dress. There is a high resolution image of the same photo here on page 2;

http://winterton.library.northwestern.e ... tml#action\tgetAllPhotos

You might be able to see details of rank and medals which could help - good luck!

Eric
User avatar
Redcoat 57
New Member
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 21 Jan 2017 14:55

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby jf42 » 28 Apr 2017 16:18

Anything useful here?

http://winterton.library.northwestern.e ... tml#action\tnewSearch|query\tsubject_facet:Abyssinian_Expedition_\(1867\-1868\)|start\t0|rows\t50|searchConstraintStore\t{%22subject_facet-Abyssinian%20Expedition%20(1867-1868)%22:%22subject_facet-Abyssinian%20Expedition%20(1867-1868)%22}
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2272
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby acanthus » 28 Apr 2017 19:10

Eric & jf42,

Thanks for the input, Captain Speedy certainly stands out however, identification of my man remains a difficult task.

As he commanded a division, one would imagine he would appear in such a photo of the commanding officer and his Staff, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a Colonel's rank badges would be a crown and star on the collar.
acanthus
Senior Member
 
Posts: 368
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 14:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby Redcoat 57 » 29 Apr 2017 15:12

A crown and star signified a full Colonel which you can see on the officer to Napier's right (as you look at him). Unfortunately most seem to have their collar turned down!

I have always been fascinated by this campaign so I have been trying to find out more about Sir George Malcolm. He had quite a few distinguished offspring including this one, Lt Col Pulteney Malcolm;

http://www.museumofpolicingincheshire.o ... lcolm.html

His medals are on loan from the Malcolm family so maybe they can put you in contact with them and see if they have a photo of Sir George.

The photo of Pulteney is worth looking at as you may spot a family resemblance;

[img][/
malcolm.jpg
image1
malcolm.jpg (24.12 KiB) Viewed 753 times
img]

It is hardly conclusive but the officer to the left of Napier looking straight at the camera looks similar to my eye...

Eric
User avatar
Redcoat 57
New Member
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 21 Jan 2017 14:55

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby crimea1854 » 29 Apr 2017 17:20

The officer seated on the extreme right has the 1854 IGS and Mutiny medals, the only officer on the staff who had this combination was Lt Col M A Dillon, so perhaps another possible identification.

Martin
crimea1854
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 951
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 08:39

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby acanthus » 30 Apr 2017 00:07

Thanks Martin, three down, only eleven to go.

Thanks also to Eric, for the great photo; I do see what you mean regarding facial likeness.

Malcolm had served in the 1st Afghan War, in the Sindh in the 1840s, the 2nd Sikh War, Persia 1856-57, the Indian Mutiny (C.B.), and Abyssinia 1867-68 (K.C.B.); G.C.B. 1886.

As far as I can establish, he received the Afghan War Medal 1839-42, and the Punjab Campaign Medal 1848-49 with two Clasps.

If the chap seated to the left of Napier is in fact Malcolm, it seems he didn't consider a ribbon bar on his tunic was necessary?

In terms of seating arrangement, if in fact it mattered?, would also seem reasonable to have the officer commanding the 2nd Division on his left, and possibly another important officer on his right?
acanthus
Senior Member
 
Posts: 368
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 14:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby mike snook » 30 Apr 2017 10:03

Theoretically, at least, military protocol would dictate that a photograph embracing an army/force commander, two divisional commanders and a bunch of army/force headquarters staff officers, would see the top man front and centre and his two divisional commanders seated left and right of him. Whether or not that is definitely the case here, at such a relatively early stage in the evolution of the formal military group photo, would have to be a moot point I suppose, but it also represents a reasonable assumption when looking for a start point. It is possible that a chief of staff figure might confuse the issue if he was of the same rank as the divisional commanders, but I can't immediately remember who Napier's COS was. The only ones I actually recognize are Napier and Speedy. Have you actually got a list of the staff? I have something on most campaigns and could have a quick look for a staff list if that would help. Can't guarantee I've got such a thing but will look if asked. Thesiger later Chelmsford was on the staff wasn't he, but I can't say he leaps out here: I think he was on the lines of communication though. I think the guy back by the tent might be a foreign officer: doesn't look like a British cap or clothing to me.

Regards

M
Dr Mike Snook MBE psc
User avatar
mike snook
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: 19 Jun 2008 09:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby crimea1854 » 30 Apr 2017 12:44

If the medal roll is used the following are classified as staff officers, together with Speedy already identified:

Lt Col M A Dillon
Capt W Arbuthnot, 14th Hussars
Lt H M Hozier 2nd Life Guards
ADC Lt Hon R C Napier, Bengal Inf.
ADC Lt W H W Scott, Bengal Inf.
Cornet Lord Charles Hamilton, 11th Hussars
Cornet R G Kennedy, 18th Hussars
Lt W Tweedie, Bengal Staff Corps.
Col C Fraser VC, 11th Hussars
Surgeon J Lumsdaine, Bombay Medical Service

Martin
crimea1854
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 951
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 08:39

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby mike snook » 30 Apr 2017 13:37

The group looks generally older than is suggested by the ranks in Martin's list and I would expect a few captains on any headquarters staff - I wonder whether some of the group might not be regimental commanders?

As ever

M
Dr Mike Snook MBE psc
User avatar
mike snook
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: 19 Jun 2008 09:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby jf42 » 30 Apr 2017 18:25

[quote="mike snook"] I think the guy back by the tent might be a foreign officer: doesn't look like a British cap or clothing to me.

/quote]

That occurred to me. He appears to be a Prussian observer or attaché; German, at any rate.
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2272
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby Isandlwana » 01 May 2017 14:30

Acanthus,

I have the photograph in my collection with the group identified in contemporary handwriting.

Standing left to right:
Capt. Tweedie, Political Officer.
Capt. Pottinger, R.A., D. A. & Q-M. General.
Capt. Count Sukendorf, 1st Regiment of Prussian Foot Guards.
Col. MacLeod, Asst. Adjt. General.
Capt. Scott, A. D. C.
Major Maude, D. & A. General.
Lord Charles Hamilton, A. D. C.
Major Grant, Intelligence Officer.
Capt. Speedy, Intelligence Officer.
Major Pitchman (?) - writing illegible.

Seated left to right:
Capt. Harrington (?) - writing illegible. Asst. Military Secretary.
Col. Dillon, Military Secretary.
Sir Robert Napier, Commanding.
Colonel the Hon. Frederic Augustus Thesiger (later 2nd Baron Lord Chelmsford).
Col. Holland.

So sorry to report your man is AWOL from the group photograph.

Regards,

John Y.
Not theirs to save the day but where they stood, falling, to dye the earth
with brave men's blood for England's sake and duty...
User avatar
Isandlwana
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 20 Oct 2008 19:16

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby mike snook » 01 May 2017 17:38

Rely on John every time.

Oh that is Thesiger John. I looked and wondered but convinced myself it wasn't. How interesting. Thank you.

As ever

M
Dr Mike Snook MBE psc
User avatar
mike snook
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 1328
Joined: 19 Jun 2008 09:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby acanthus » 01 May 2017 18:36

To all those concerned, a big vote of thanks for all the information, which apart from myself, will no doubt be appreciated, and valued by others who may have an interest in this campaign.

The most important response from John which is valued and not un-expected, is of course wonderful, but on one count disappointing for the lack of the name and face I was looking for however, that's life, we can't have them all.

Even so, this list of names now with the photo, will surely be of significant help to all those with an interest in this campaign or any one of the group of officers pictured in the photo.

My search for an image of my man continues.
acanthus
Senior Member
 
Posts: 368
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 14:35

Re: Abyssinian Expedition

Postby Isandlwana » 03 May 2017 13:53

Acanthus,

Are you aware of the lithograph of Sir George Malcolm in the National Portrait Gallery?

If not here's the link http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/searc ... ge-Malcolm

Regards,

John Y.
Not theirs to save the day but where they stood, falling, to dye the earth
with brave men's blood for England's sake and duty...
User avatar
Isandlwana
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 598
Joined: 20 Oct 2008 19:16

Next

Return to Other Victorian Wars Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron