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Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017 12:46
by petey
Hi . Need some help to identify this item [ picture attached ] . Battle keep sake ? The metal shaft is stamped 32 REG and cut off 1 inch from metal shaft.
Spear blade is 11.5 inchs long . No ornate markings or other marks for ID. Thanks.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017 17:39
by Frogsmile
32 Regiment does not fit with cavalry and suggests infantry. My first thought would be a sergeant's 'Spontoon' (carried as late as the battle at Waterloo), but such a weapon usually had a short cross piece to facilitate the hooking of a mounted man off from his horse.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017 19:32
by RobD
Not Zulu...

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017 22:51
by ED, in Los Angeles
It looks theatrical/ceremonial/architectural. And judging what I think is a thick blade, that this is a cast piece, not forged.

pety....Does this appear to be cast Iron and how deep in the shaft socket? Is there a seam on the socket. What do you think this item weighs?

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 04:01
by david brown
Looks to be for ceremonial use as it looks to be very weak were the blade meets the shaft , wouldn't last 5 minutes in action , would be bent very easily at that point.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 12:14
by petey
Thanks , I can not see any seam on metal work. Item weighs a rougth 700 kg. Middle shaft length 5.5 inchs with a continues 9.5 inch metal slot for wooden part. This was also found with a pattern 1 V.R. Lee Enfield bayonet , a boar war calvery water bottle and a french yatagen bayonet from a house clearence 30 years ago !

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 12:44
by Frogsmile
Is the 'T' in the regiment abbreviation smaller than the other letters and underlined? If it is that suggests a British provenance.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 13:02
by petey
Just stamped 32 REG in an old style letter stamp which is worn and hard to see. This item has genuine age. The 32nd regiment were an infantry Reg hence my idea of a battle keep sake and had stamped by the owner . Option 2 .. a ceremonial item but just a bit to plane for that.
Back to basics... is the shape English ?

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 14:06
by Frogsmile
petey wrote:Just stamped 32 REG in an old style letter stamp which is worn and hard to see. This item has genuine age. The 32nd regiment were an infantry Reg hence my idea of a battle keep sake and had stamped by the owner . Option 2 .. a ceremonial item but just a bit to plane for that.
Back to basics... is the shape English ?


As I said above the blade shape is very much like an Infantry sergeant's spontoon except that a slender cross bar is missing. I imagine that the construction was in two pieces so it does not seem impossible that the cross piece is missing.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 18:13
by ED, in Los Angeles
petey's latest image posts show this item in a different light. There appears to be an open area on the socket with a remnant of a wood shaft still in the socket. That is how spontoon sockets are constructed from the images found on the internet. The slender square section on the shaft below the blade is where the cross bar was installed. Square shape of the shaft would prevent the crossbar from rotating after it was installed. Red-hot crossbar iron and hammered on, the old school way.

look....https://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/bri ... rding-pik/

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017 19:36
by Frogsmile
ED, in Los Angeles wrote:petey's latest image posts show this item in a different light. There appears to be an open area on the socket with a remnant of a wood shaft still in the socket. That is how spontoon sockets are constructed from the images found on the internet. The slender square section on the shaft below the blade is where the cross bar was installed. Square shape of the shaft would prevent the crossbar from rotating after it was installed. Red-hot crossbar iron and hammered on, the old school way.

look....https://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/bri ... rding-pik/


Yes, I think so too. There is a well known figure of a 23rd RWF Sergeant holding a spontoon on one corner of the Duke of Wellington Memorial in London. As soon as I saw Petey's first photo of the blade I could see it was the same as on the statue.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 10 Apr 2017 17:16
by petey
Thanks , That is very interesting . Looking at the image on the attached link shows near identical lengths and spacings on the metal shaft down to the 3 metal pins for fixing the wooden part.
On a closer look where the cross would be a letter w or m is stamped on one side , Makers mark ? This would be coverd by the cross section so it would never be seen and a bit pointless having it there.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 10 Apr 2017 19:47
by A.Roads
It is a British Spontoon, provenance 32nd Regiment, cross bar missing, exactly as noted by several posts. Well done a nice item, I have a pair but am unable to determine their regiment.

Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017 15:50
by petey
Thanks all for your expert help and identification of the item. A couple of last questions ...
Q1... not for sale but what is it worth ?
Q2... How to date it ? Did the design change i.e. pattern change over the years , think it was only in use from 1800 - 1830,3 by infantry.
Q3... is it worth trying to find history i.e. owner ? I can remember the house it came from and this along with other items were famley items. I am ok with research but mostly ww1 , better records . Are Roll call records for this date any good . Would be a long search like looking for a needle in a hay stack !