Help needed on lance / spear id.

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Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby petey » 08 Apr 2017 12:46

Hi . Need some help to identify this item [ picture attached ] . Battle keep sake ? The metal shaft is stamped 32 REG and cut off 1 inch from metal shaft.
Spear blade is 11.5 inchs long . No ornate markings or other marks for ID. Thanks.
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2010-10-21 07-09-25_0001.JPG
lance / spear.
2010-10-21 07-09-25_0001.JPG (94.56 KiB) Viewed 999 times
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby Frogsmile » 08 Apr 2017 17:39

32 Regiment does not fit with cavalry and suggests infantry. My first thought would be a sergeant's 'Spontoon' (carried as late as the battle at Waterloo), but such a weapon usually had a short cross piece to facilitate the hooking of a mounted man off from his horse.
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Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby RobD » 08 Apr 2017 19:32

Not Zulu...
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 08 Apr 2017 22:51

It looks theatrical/ceremonial/architectural. And judging what I think is a thick blade, that this is a cast piece, not forged.

pety....Does this appear to be cast Iron and how deep in the shaft socket? Is there a seam on the socket. What do you think this item weighs?
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby david brown » 09 Apr 2017 04:01

Looks to be for ceremonial use as it looks to be very weak were the blade meets the shaft , wouldn't last 5 minutes in action , would be bent very easily at that point.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby petey » 09 Apr 2017 12:14

Thanks , I can not see any seam on metal work. Item weighs a rougth 700 kg. Middle shaft length 5.5 inchs with a continues 9.5 inch metal slot for wooden part. This was also found with a pattern 1 V.R. Lee Enfield bayonet , a boar war calvery water bottle and a french yatagen bayonet from a house clearence 30 years ago !
Attachments
2010-10-22 06-51-07_0005.JPG
2010-10-22 06-51-07_0005.JPG (106.75 KiB) Viewed 948 times
2010-10-22 06-52-30_0007.JPG
2010-10-22 06-52-30_0007.JPG (85.13 KiB) Viewed 948 times
2010-10-22 06-50-35_0004.JPG
2010-10-22 06-50-35_0004.JPG (120.83 KiB) Viewed 948 times
2010-10-22 06-50-18_0003.JPG
2010-10-22 06-50-18_0003.JPG (80.73 KiB) Viewed 948 times
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Apr 2017 12:44

Is the 'T' in the regiment abbreviation smaller than the other letters and underlined? If it is that suggests a British provenance.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby petey » 09 Apr 2017 13:02

Just stamped 32 REG in an old style letter stamp which is worn and hard to see. This item has genuine age. The 32nd regiment were an infantry Reg hence my idea of a battle keep sake and had stamped by the owner . Option 2 .. a ceremonial item but just a bit to plane for that.
Back to basics... is the shape English ?
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Apr 2017 14:06

petey wrote:Just stamped 32 REG in an old style letter stamp which is worn and hard to see. This item has genuine age. The 32nd regiment were an infantry Reg hence my idea of a battle keep sake and had stamped by the owner . Option 2 .. a ceremonial item but just a bit to plane for that.
Back to basics... is the shape English ?


As I said above the blade shape is very much like an Infantry sergeant's spontoon except that a slender cross bar is missing. I imagine that the construction was in two pieces so it does not seem impossible that the cross piece is missing.
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Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 09 Apr 2017 18:13

petey's latest image posts show this item in a different light. There appears to be an open area on the socket with a remnant of a wood shaft still in the socket. That is how spontoon sockets are constructed from the images found on the internet. The slender square section on the shaft below the blade is where the cross bar was installed. Square shape of the shaft would prevent the crossbar from rotating after it was installed. Red-hot crossbar iron and hammered on, the old school way.

look....https://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/bri ... rding-pik/
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Apr 2017 19:36

ED, in Los Angeles wrote:petey's latest image posts show this item in a different light. There appears to be an open area on the socket with a remnant of a wood shaft still in the socket. That is how spontoon sockets are constructed from the images found on the internet. The slender square section on the shaft below the blade is where the cross bar was installed. Square shape of the shaft would prevent the crossbar from rotating after it was installed. Red-hot crossbar iron and hammered on, the old school way.

look....https://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/bri ... rding-pik/


Yes, I think so too. There is a well known figure of a 23rd RWF Sergeant holding a spontoon on one corner of the Duke of Wellington Memorial in London. As soon as I saw Petey's first photo of the blade I could see it was the same as on the statue.
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IGP1468.jpg
IGP1468.jpg (27.13 KiB) Viewed 905 times
23rd_royal_welsh_fusiliers.JPG
23rd_royal_welsh_fusiliers.JPG (93.55 KiB) Viewed 905 times
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby petey » 10 Apr 2017 17:16

Thanks , That is very interesting . Looking at the image on the attached link shows near identical lengths and spacings on the metal shaft down to the 3 metal pins for fixing the wooden part.
On a closer look where the cross would be a letter w or m is stamped on one side , Makers mark ? This would be coverd by the cross section so it would never be seen and a bit pointless having it there.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby A.Roads » 10 Apr 2017 19:47

It is a British Spontoon, provenance 32nd Regiment, cross bar missing, exactly as noted by several posts. Well done a nice item, I have a pair but am unable to determine their regiment.
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Re: Help needed on lance / spear id.

Postby petey » 11 Apr 2017 15:50

Thanks all for your expert help and identification of the item. A couple of last questions ...
Q1... not for sale but what is it worth ?
Q2... How to date it ? Did the design change i.e. pattern change over the years , think it was only in use from 1800 - 1830,3 by infantry.
Q3... is it worth trying to find history i.e. owner ? I can remember the house it came from and this along with other items were famley items. I am ok with research but mostly ww1 , better records . Are Roll call records for this date any good . Would be a long search like looking for a needle in a hay stack !
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