ID for 3 Swords, Please?

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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:22

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #6
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(11).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(12).jpg

Thanks to a marvelous post on this forum by Jonathan, I've been reading up on basic sword ID tips. From that, it seems that this would be the Infantry style sword for the 1845-54 period, is that right? The only soldiers I have in the family during those years, are actually in the Navy or the Life, Grenadier and Coldstream Guards . . . would this apply to any?


This is a 1st Lifeguards officers state sword. (I'm still looking to acquire one). One of the most elite British regiments.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:24

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #7
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(13).jpg


An officers mameluke sword to the 60th. I can't tell from the photo but if the scabbard is plated and not brass it is post 1900.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:26

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #9
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(16).jpg


an officers 1845p sword, brass scabbard indicates field rank of major and above.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:26

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #10
Three photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(17).jpg

Hilt (close-ups)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(18).jpg
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(19).jpg

This is . . . unusual. Assuming that it's ceremonial?! :)



It's French, possibly Napoleonic
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:28

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #11
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(20).jpg


1822p officers infantry sword, great sword knot. The pommel appears to have an ivory insert to prevent it from tarnishing the uniform.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:29

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #12
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(21).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(22).jpg


British court sword
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 20:31

BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #8
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(14).jpg

Hilt (close-up)

http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(15).jpg

This looks ceremonial, and as the cypher is for Victoria, I'm wondering if anyone thinks this sword could have fit either of these positions:
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1853-1855)
Lord Steward of the Queen's Household (1857-8, 1864-1866)


I think your assumptions are quite possible.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 15 Feb 2017 20:54

Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #4
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(7).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(8).jpg


Wow another 1845p Wilkinson and your swords have original sword knots, leave them on and do not remove them for any reason because they are too fragile.


Hi, again!
Thanks for all the info. About this sword #4 . . .
Here is a photo of one of the family at Charterhouse School in the late 1880s, and it looks like he is holding this sword (minus the sword knot). Would they have been using the 1845p at that date, or would it have been common for young men to use older patterns?

It also looked like it could have been sword #9, but what about the brass scabbard?
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 15 Feb 2017 21:07

Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #7
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(13).jpg


An officers mameluke sword to the 60th. I can't tell from the photo but if the scabbard is plated and not brass it is post 1900.


The scabbard is broken, so it must be post 1900. The 60th . . . so, I'm looking for someone who served with the 60th? I'll have to dig into that one. Would this have been a dress sword?
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 15 Feb 2017 21:07

Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:Hello, again!

I've gotten some more photos of the swords, and this time they are pulled out of the scabbards (as well as closer shots of the hilts). I'm just going to post them one at a time per post, which should make it easier for replying.

All in all, there are twelve different swords --- each posted below in a separate entry.
There are large versions of each photo, so just click the links to see the full size image. I really appreciate help with this and any info or tidbits anyone can add about any of these swords. :)

The blade on several of these seems to have some kind of corrosion or damage. Do they look typical? Is it that some kind of plate is wearing off, or is it rust?

SWORD #1
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)

This sword is the 1845p infantry officers sword. I do see personal etching in the form of a family crest on the blade
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(1).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(2).jpg


Comments for Swords #1 and #2 didn't seem to come through. :)
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 15 Feb 2017 21:09

Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #6
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(11).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(12).jpg

Thanks to a marvelous post on this forum by Jonathan, I've been reading up on basic sword ID tips. From that, it seems that this would be the Infantry style sword for the 1845-54 period, is that right? The only soldiers I have in the family during those years, are actually in the Navy or the Life, Grenadier and Coldstream Guards . . . would this apply to any?


This is a 1st Lifeguards officers state sword. (I'm still looking to acquire one). One of the most elite British regiments.


Quite thrilling, as there was only one member of the family who would have had this! His breastplate and helmet were around in the 1950s, but they haven't turned up yet. His brother was in the Coldstreams and died at Inkerman . . . I sure wish his sword would turn up! :)
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 22:33

BingandNelsonFan wrote:
Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #4
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(7).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(8).jpg


Wow another 1845p Wilkinson and your swords have original sword knots, leave them on and do not remove them for any reason because they are too fragile.


Hi, again!
Thanks for all the info. About this sword #4 . . .
Here is a photo of one of the family at Charterhouse School in the late 1880s, and it looks like he is holding this sword (minus the sword knot). Would they have been using the 1845p at that date, or would it have been common for young men to use older patterns?

It also looked like it could have been sword #9, but what about the brass scabbard?


The sword is not an old pattern in the 1880's, the 1845/54p did not have a folding guard. the 1854 less the folding guard was not superceded until 1895. Infantry officers bought their sword once commissioned and when promoted major had the scabbard replaced with a brass one.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 22:35

BingandNelsonFan wrote:
Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:Hello, again!

I've gotten some more photos of the swords, and this time they are pulled out of the scabbards (as well as closer shots of the hilts). I'm just going to post them one at a time per post, which should make it easier for replying.

All in all, there are twelve different swords --- each posted below in a separate entry.
There are large versions of each photo, so just click the links to see the full size image. I really appreciate help with this and any info or tidbits anyone can add about any of these swords. :)

The blade on several of these seems to have some kind of corrosion or damage. Do they look typical? Is it that some kind of plate is wearing off, or is it rust?

SWORD #1
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)

This sword is the 1845p infantry officers sword. I do see personal etching in the form of a family crest on the blade
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(1).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(2).jpg


Comments for Swords #1 and #2 didn't seem to come through. :)


I put it by mistake in the quote. This sword is the 1845p infantry officers sword. I do see personal etching in the form of a family crest on the blade
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 15 Feb 2017 22:38

BingandNelsonFan wrote:
Will Mathieson wrote:
BingandNelsonFan wrote:SWORD #7
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(13).jpg


An officers mameluke sword to the 60th. I can't tell from the photo but if the scabbard is plated and not brass it is post 1900.


The scabbard is broken, so it must be post 1900. The 60th . . . so, I'm looking for someone who served with the 60th? I'll have to dig into that one. Would this have been a dress sword?


Yes a dress sword though some were used in earlier times.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 15 Feb 2017 22:52

Will Mathieson wrote:SWORD #4
Two photos of this one:
Sword and Scabbard (full length)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(7).jpg

Hilt (close-up)
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/pe%20swords%20(8).jpg

Wow another 1845p Wilkinson and your swords have original sword knots, leave them on and do not remove them for any reason because they are too fragile.

The sword is not an old pattern in the 1880's, the 1845/54p did not have a folding guard. the 1854 less the folding guard was not superceded until 1895. Infantry officers bought their sword once commissioned and when promoted major had the scabbard replaced with a brass one.


Okay, that makes sense about the scabbard. Would this young man at Charterhouse have purchased his own sword, or would he have used a family sword? Looking at the picture of him there, would you think that appears to be either sword #4 or #9?

Also, there is a family letter (dating in the 1840s) from the young man who would go on to enter the Coldstream Guards and die at Inkerman. He did not have a commission at the time of the letter (being still in school) and is asking his mother to send his sword to him. Could that be one of these 1845p blades?
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