ID for 3 Swords, Please?

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ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 22 Oct 2016 00:07

Hi! I'm working on some family history research and have just acquired photos of some swords still held by the family. I have no idea about sword identification or anything like that, but I would love to be able to say which sword belonged to which family member. All together, there are twelve swords, but I'm going to post one photo at a time so as not to be overwhelming. The following is a list of possibilities, being ranks and regiments in which family members are known to have served. The family says that most of the swords are Victorian era, but there may be some from the earlier or slightly later periods. I'm not sure. I'm including some earlier men in the list, just in case there is an odd one here.

17th Century Officer in the Royal Navy
18th Century Officer in the Royal Navy (1750s-1769)
3 Officers in the Royal Cornwall Fencibles/Militia/Volunteers (Ranging in rank from Ensign to Colonel between the years 1792-1807)
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1853-1855)
Lord Steward of the Queen's Household (1857-8, 1864-1866)
Cornet to Captain in 1st Regiment of Life Guards (1846-1853)
Lieut. to Captain in Coldstream Guards (1847-1854)
Lieutenant in Royal Navy (1848-1853)
Captain in Grenadier Guards (1858-1868)
Captain in Royal Cornwall Rangers (1869)
Captain to Colonel in Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (1880s-1890s)
Officer in the Coldstream Guards 1906-1909)
Officer in 2nd Dragoons, Royal Scots Greys (1910-1918)
Lt.-Col in Intelligence of Regular Army Reserve (1920s)

Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7099.jpg

Any help is most appreciated!
Sarah
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Swords 1.JPG
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Last edited by BingandNelsonFan on 24 Oct 2016 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Mark A. Reid » 22 Oct 2016 01:24

Hi Sarah;

Gosh, that is quite the naval and military pedigree! There are a few sword experts on the Forum who will certainly be along soon to provide informed information on these three swords but my initial response is that the lower two appear to be Royal Navy officers' swords. They bear a striking resemblnce to my Father's sword, a George VI example, that is just across the room from me as I write. My dilettante opinion is that these two are more likely to have been used by a naval officer. The sword knots may provide further evidence, if they are originals.

Anyway, perhaps an initial stab at matching the swords to your ancestors?

Cheers,

Mark
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 22 Oct 2016 02:29

Hi Sarah only the middle sword has a lion head pommel suggesting naval and the scabbards opposing rings also suggest naval.
The brass infantry field officers scabbard is a 1822/45 pattern for Majors and above. The foremost is a 1822/45p, possibly an 1822p infantry officers with pipe backed blade. I'd love to see the blades as the swords with their sword knots look to be in fine shape.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 22 Oct 2016 14:15

Hi! Thanks for these initial responses. This is great! Yes, the family does have quite a pedigree! All of these swords will be exactly as they were left by the original bearer when he was through with them, and they have all been sitting at Port Eliot in Cornwall (the family home) ever since.

I had someone go into the house to take these photos for me, and I can ask him to take some more of certain things or parts, so if you let me know what would be good to see, I can ask him for that.

Swords are totally new to me, and I've never actually seen one in real life, so I would be very open to anyone's suggestion as to which sword could belong to which career. There are more pictures of more swords. Would it be better for me to post them in this thread or start another?

Thanks!
Sarah
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 01:30

Sure post more photos Sarah.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 24 Oct 2016 13:21

Will post these each in a reply of their own, which should make it easier to keep them straight.

PHOTO #2
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7104.jpg
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 24 Oct 2016 13:22

This one just shows a single sword.

PHOTO #3
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7105.jpg
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Swords 3.JPG
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 24 Oct 2016 13:24

This one is a rack of swords. Thanks so much for your help on these, and (like I said) please feel free to assign a sword to an officer in the list above, if you think it's right!

PHOTO #4
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7106.jpg
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Swords 4.JPG
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 13:47

BingandNelsonFan wrote:Will post these each in a reply of their own, which should make it easier to keep them straight.

PHOTO #2
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7104.jpg


This is an 1845p British infantry sword with folding guard. The folding guard was abolished in 1854 but makers still used them for several years after. Assuming the blade is the 1845p Wilkinson type with fuller it would date approximately to 1845-1860.
The small horse headed sword is not military but an interesting item. Would be great to see the blades as there could be owners initials and/or regimental etching.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 13:50

BingandNelsonFan wrote:This one just shows a single sword.

PHOTO #3
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7105.jpg


Appears to be a court sword. Possibly makers particulars on it could help put it into a date period.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 13:55

BingandNelsonFan wrote:This one is a rack of swords. Thanks so much for your help on these, and (like I said) please feel free to assign a sword to an officer in the list above, if you think it's right!

PHOTO #4
Here is a link to the full-sized version of the photo:
http://www.sarahbethonline.com/photos/forumpics/DSCF7106.jpg


Top to bottom: mameluke officers sword, post Victorian with steel scabbard. Victorian mamelukes has brass scabbards.
Victorian court sword
1845 British infantry field officers sword with brass scabbard denoting field rank.
Napoleonic French (band)? sword.
Court sword
1822/45p infantry officer piquet weight sword (for dress occasion) the scabbard appears narrow enough for the sword to be piquet weight.
Last edited by Will Mathieson on 24 Oct 2016 13:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 24 Oct 2016 13:56

Will Mathieson wrote:This is an 1845p British infantry sword with folding guard. The folding guard was abolished in 1854 but makers still used them for several years after. Assuming the blade is the 1845p Wilkinson type with fuller it would date approximately to 1845-1860.

The small horse headed sword is not military but an interesting item. Would be great to see the blades as there could be owners initials and/or regimental etching.


Thanks! So, would you say that the 1845p infantry sword could have been used by either the Captain in the Coldstream Guards (he died at Inkerman in 1854) or the Captain in the 1st Life Guards who retired in 1853? They were both sons of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1853-5) and served as ADCs to him, as well.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 24 Oct 2016 14:08

Will Mathieson wrote:Top to bottom: mameluke officers sword, post Victorian with steel scabbard. Victorian mamelukes has brass scabbards.
Victorian court sword
1845 British infantry field officers sword with brass scabbard denoting field rank.
Napoleonic French (band)? sword.
Court sword
1822/45p infantry officer piquet weight sword (for dress occasion) the scabbard appears narrow enough for the sword to be piquet weight.


The Court Swords would fit in here, because this is the family of the Earl of St. Germans, so they appeared at court functions and held court positions for centuries. One of them (Grenadier Guards, 1858-1868; Colonel in Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, 1880s-1890s) also served as personal equerry to Prince and Princess Christian of Schleswig-Holstein for decades, as well as serving in the household of the Queen.

Do you think that this 1845 Infantry Field Officer's sword could belong to either of the two men in my previous post?

Napoleonic French Sword . . . being a sword that would have belonged to a French Officer?

Thanks so much! This is so fun to try to figure out which sword belonged to which person.

I will send a note to the gentleman who is photographing these for me and ask if he would take photos of the blades as well. Would it help to have close-up shots of the handles, too?
Sarah
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 14:46

BingandNelsonFan wrote:
Will Mathieson wrote:This is an 1845p British infantry sword with folding guard. The folding guard was abolished in 1854 but makers still used them for several years after. Assuming the blade is the 1845p Wilkinson type with fuller it would date approximately to 1845-1860.

The small horse headed sword is not military but an interesting item. Would be great to see the blades as there could be owners initials and/or regimental etching.


Thanks! So, would you say that the 1845p infantry sword could have been used by either the Captain in the Coldstream Guards (he died at Inkerman in 1854) or the Captain in the 1st Life Guards who retired in 1853? They were both sons of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1853-5) and served as ADCs to him, as well.


Sarah the Coldstream Guards had their own pattern of officer swords with their crest in place of the VR and a steel hilt not brass so it's highly unlikely the 1845p sword was used by the Capt. Lifeguards are cavalry and also had swords particular to their regiment so no again for the Capt. of the 1st Lifeguards using a 1845p infantry sword.
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Re: ID for 3 Swords, Please?

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Oct 2016 14:50

BingandNelsonFan wrote:
Will Mathieson wrote:Top to bottom: mameluke officers sword, post Victorian with steel scabbard. Victorian mamelukes has brass scabbards.
Victorian court sword
1845 British infantry field officers sword with brass scabbard denoting field rank.
Napoleonic French (band)? sword.
Court sword
1822/45p infantry officer piquet weight sword (for dress occasion) the scabbard appears narrow enough for the sword to be piquet weight.


The Court Swords would fit in here, because this is the family of the Earl of St. Germans, so they appeared at court functions and held court positions for centuries. One of them (Grenadier Guards, 1858-1868; Colonel in Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, 1880s-1890s) also served as personal equerry to Prince and Princess Christian of Schleswig-Holstein for decades, as well as serving in the household of the Queen.

Do you think that this 1845 Infantry Field Officer's sword could belong to either of the two men in my previous post?

Napoleonic French Sword . . . being a sword that would have belonged to a French Officer?

Thanks so much! This is so fun to try to figure out which sword belonged to which person.

I will send a note to the gentleman who is photographing these for me and ask if he would take photos of the blades as well. Would it help to have close-up shots of the handles, too?

Sarah


The 1845 with brass scabbard is for majors and above in infantry regiments only, not guard regiments.
The french sword is not an officers sword.
Sorry but you have a few strike outs but some very nice swords.
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