Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

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Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby jplu2 » 31 May 2016 19:01

Hi there

I am very new to all of this sword collecting stuff...but I decided to 'bite the bullet' and purchase a sword (well two actually, but I was only interested in the one) from a premium auction house today. This was the description:

An Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword, 83.5cm blade etched with scrolling foliage and crowned VRI cyphers, regulation brass Gothic hilt incorporating a crowned VRI cypher, wire bound leather grip, worn, contained in its brass scabbard, a note with the sword describes it as having belonged to Dr David Ridick was a Colonel in the Indian Medical Service and is buried at Simlar, together with another similar with plain blade and lacking scabbard.

Now that I have come home and started looking at the photos, I wonder whether I haven't gone and bought myself a beautiful reproduction?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and if it is fake, what I can do with regards the auction house.

Kindest regards
Jordan

P.S. In retrospect it is the leather grip that puts me off!
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Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 5.jpg (56 KiB) Viewed 597 times
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Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 4.jpg (47.21 KiB) Viewed 597 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 3.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 3.jpg (57.73 KiB) Viewed 597 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 2.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 2.jpg (57.64 KiB) Viewed 597 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 1.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 1.jpg (56.65 KiB) Viewed 597 times
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby jplu2 » 31 May 2016 19:03

A few more photos:
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Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 9.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 9.jpg (74.22 KiB) Viewed 595 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 8.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 8.jpg (87.78 KiB) Viewed 595 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 7.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 7.jpg (63.11 KiB) Viewed 595 times
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 6.jpg
Indian Army 1822 Pattern Infantry Officer's sword 6.jpg (79.16 KiB) Viewed 595 times
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby acanthus » 31 May 2016 22:24

In my opinion a fake, the etching is very doubtful.
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby jplu2 » 31 May 2016 22:28

Thanks acanthus, I really am an idiot :(
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby Will Mathieson » 01 Jun 2016 00:22

Some British pattern swords were made in India for British and Indian officers and the quality can be less than British made swords.
Always be leary of notes accompanying a sword, family memory can be lacking or the swords could have just been collected by an officer but never used by him.
The HHC troopers sword went quite inexpensive even with a later dating scabbard.
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby Will Mathieson » 01 Jun 2016 13:04

The problem with early made copies is that they have age to them and this give them a level of suspect authenticity.
Buy the sword never the story.
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby jplu2 » 01 Jun 2016 14:25

Absolutely agreed and to be fair to the auctioneer, I emailed them this morning, and they agreed to cancel the transaction.

He actually stated that he had mentioned to the family that the swords were spurious, but they had insisted that the 'story' was correct.

Good on him for cancelling though, I really do appreciate it and think I will just quit buying swords now :)
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby Will Mathieson » 01 Jun 2016 14:45

I strongly suggest purchasing sword reference books. Invaluable and helps prevent bad purchases.
Attend militaria shows and handle authentic swords to get a good sense of what is original.
This auction house I have had good success with, but with anything, "Caveat Emptor" buyer beware.
I found that auction prices were low and a good source for swords. Unfortunately currency conversion and shipping for me only allow certain purchases.
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby MikeS » 01 Jun 2016 17:11

Jordan,
As Will has suggested good reference books are a must. The one book most used by collectors of standard pattern British swords is Brian Robson's "Swords of the British Army", which is on sale at the moment at the Naval and Military Press, so grab a copy while it's reasonably cheap. The Collectors Showcase here on VWF also has some great collections of swords you can view. Identifying the obvious fakes isn't hard, it just takes a little time so don't get discouraged.
Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby jplu2 » 01 Jun 2016 20:07

Thanks Mike and Will.

My main interest is Campaign Furniture, but I bought a portrait of a IVth Indian Cavalry Officer who died in the First World War and then found his sword and finally his medals. Having the sword sparked the interest in swords, so very new to this. Trying to focus on a niche market of Indian Cavalry/Army (Very sought after I gather) so that I don't get too confused.

I will have a look at the references suggested, this evening and try to increase my knowledge as soon as possible :)

Thanks again for everyones help and hopefully I won't be caught again!
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Re: Possible Fake Indian Army 1822 Pattern Sword

Postby david brown » 03 Mar 2017 00:05

Some British sword etchings on genuine Victorian swords

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Image

Image
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