Red tunic ID req'd, please.

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Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 07 Nov 2014 19:36

Hi all,

With reference to the attached pictures, can anyone ID this tunic and/or give me any relevant info about it? The jacket buttons don't match the pocket buttons (which are of the ball type), so I suspect that they aren't original. It would appear that the last owner of this jacket had the surname Sills. I look forward to your replies! Incidently, it seems to have had a lot of service wear to the front (patched rips etc) with very little to the back.

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Jerry B » 09 Nov 2014 10:00

It appears to be a serge frock, probably circa 1908 in date though the buttons suggest an earlier period.

try this thread for some help perhaps.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9263
Regards,

Jerry
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Nov 2014 17:40

I agree with Jerry that it is a red (as opposed to scarlet) serge frock, aka 'patrol jacket' of officers pattern. It appears to be a late pattern (they were gradually phased out in most regiments after 1902, in favour of the dark blue version overseas and the frock coat at 'Home stations'). It is clearly a special, regimental pattern, as indicated by the pleated chest pockets and, in particular, the half belt at the back and the inverted shoulder pleat to facilitate freedom of movement. When first introduced, used in the field, these jackets increasingly became the undress garment in barracks for such duties as unit courts martial, boards of officers and general duty wear. As there was a culture of officers being dressed differently from the men, other than when in full dress (in order to promote instant recognition), the dark blue version (both were required for a period in the 1890s) gradually replaced the red one. The fact that the lower pockets are bellowed, also indicates a later period.
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 02 Dec 2014 08:01

Hi,

Sorry for the long delay, but thank you both for the interest and information. Can you explain the mismatch between the tunic buttons and pocket ball type buttons?

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Frogsmile » 02 Dec 2014 15:49

Darrow wrote:Hi,

Sorry for the long delay, but thank you both for the interest and information. Can you explain the mismatch between the tunic buttons and pocket ball type buttons?

Regs
D


I have never come acrross such a mix of buttons before. Ball buttons were traditionally the type used by Hussars and Horse Artillery, neither of which used red jackets, and they were not mixed with other buttons. They were/are easier to fasten and unfasten with cold fingers and their positioning on pockets might be significant in that regard. My gut feeling is that this might be a jacket of Canadian origin.
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 04 Dec 2014 07:51

Hi,

So you think that this button combination could be original?

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby trooper » 04 Dec 2014 16:59

Is there any design on the ball buttons? Trooper
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Frogsmile » 04 Dec 2014 17:24

Darrow wrote:Hi,

So you think that this button combination could be original?

Regs
D


I have never heard of such a thing before and anything can be possible, but the mixing of buttons in this way is unlikely to be approved by regulation, so my short answer is no, I personally do not believe that it is original.
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 05 Dec 2014 07:43

Hi,

Firstly, there is no design on the ball buttons and one of the epaulette buttons is secured to the shoulder with quite an old looking metal staple. If this is original then it might be a clue to the tunics age, origin etc? Also if these plain ball buttons are original and the front crown buttons a later addition, then would it not mean that the tunic is Other Ranks? A picture of the staple and button can be supplied if required. Thanks again!

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Frogsmile » 05 Dec 2014 13:16

Darrow wrote:Hi,

Firstly, there is no design on the ball buttons and one of the epaulette buttons is secured to the shoulder with quite an old looking metal staple. If this is original then it might be a clue to the tunics age, origin etc? Also if these plain ball buttons are original and the front crown buttons a later addition, then would it not mean that the tunic is Other Ranks? A picture of the staple and button can be supplied if required. Thanks again!

Regs
D


Ball buttons were not generally used on red/scarlet jackets, as I have tried to explain. The jackets of hussars and horse artillery, who did use ball buttons, were blue. Also a metal staple was not the usual method of affixing a button. It seems fairly positive that you have an old jacket on which some fairly spurious buttons have been fitted, probably for theatrical purposes.
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby trooper » 05 Dec 2014 19:05

I am sure Frogsmile is correct as the crowned buttons do not figure as military. Such a device is not listed for any regular or yeomanry unit. Trooper
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 09 Dec 2014 20:34

Hi,

Well thanks again, in the interests of authenticity can you suggest what buttons you would expect to see on this particular tunic?

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby trooper » 10 Dec 2014 05:27

Buttons were of regimental pattern. A full listing can be found in an appendix of the 1900 dress regulations which is readily obtainable second hand at a reasonable price, or there are several specialist books on the subject. Trooper
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby Darrow » 10 Dec 2014 08:08

Hi Trooper,

Thanks for that, I have for a while now been planning on getting a copy of that publication. You never know, Santa might have one with my name on it!

Regs
D
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Re: Red tunic ID req'd, please.

Postby englishman_ca » 21 Feb 2017 01:06

Canadian RNWMP?
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