Uniform of the 15th Regiment of foot

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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 29 Oct 2012 20:59

I have ordered the Thin red line book, just waiting now for it to arrive.

All good stuff, the more I know the better I can do it.

Paul C
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 29 Oct 2012 21:06

psc945 wrote:No , I just use my old PC number, but use my main initials too.
Thats all.
I have been in touch with the Diehards some time ago, keep meaning to see them in action one day, they did invite me. When I can get time I will pop and see them with my kit in the boot , so I can get some more info.

Paul C


You will find them welcoming, friendly and knowledgeable and you will learn a great deal about the period that you are interested in.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 29 Oct 2012 21:39

Things like this tend to confuse. When you think you have an angle on the tunics.
It says from Simkin, which I believe is a good historian. However it says 1880, so why are they wearing jam pot collar and cuffs when it is not supposed to be brought in until 1881.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 30 Oct 2012 09:32

psc945 wrote:Things like this tend to confuse. When you think you have an angle on the tunics.
It says from Simkin, which I believe is a good historian. However it says 1880, so why are they wearing jam pot collar and cuffs when it is not supposed to be brought in until 1881.


Prototypes were issued on trial to some regiments in 1880 and the final pattern regulated by order for all units in 1881 as part of the Cardwell/Childers Reforms and it was then that the controversial stipulation for 'standardised' (pseudo National) facings was given. In any case do not rely 100% on Simkin, as although a brilliant and prolific artist, he is well known for making mistakes with uniform detail.

You can get some good detail on uniforms here, although bear in mind that it is officers uniforms that are shown. Nevertheless, you will get an especially good perspective of the rear view as well as the officers ranked cuffs. The illustrations were purloined from the book 'thin red line' that you have ordered: http://www.victorianstrollers.co.uk/ste ... ranks.html
Notice in particular how the two rear vertical lines of piping run along what are referred to as 'patrol' (i.e. type of) seams. On other types of jacket these seams often formed the lower vents.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 31 Oct 2012 21:44

Just got the book the THIN RED LINE
interesting reading. Just what I was after.
I can see the detail I need, along with my Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900
Just mix in a bit of the reality of delay in providing the equipment and the sometimes resourceful soldier in the field and I am nearly there.
But a query, I have the glengarry and it has a red 'pom pom' for the want of the correct term, the books show black wool in all the pictures. What is correct?

1881 Tunic

Tunic 1a.jpg
Frock 1b.jpg
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1881 Frock

Frock 1b.jpg
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 01 Nov 2012 13:47

psc945 wrote:Just got the book the THIN RED LINE
interesting reading. Just what I was after.
I can see the detail I need, along with my Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900
Just mix in a bit of the reality of delay in providing the equipment and the sometimes resourceful soldier in the field and I am nearly there.
But a query, I have the glengarry and it has a red 'pom pom' for the want of the correct term, the books show black wool in all the pictures. What is correct?

1881 Tunic



I do not have my library with me but from memory only I believe that Royal regiments had a red pom pom (aka 'toorie') and non Royal black. Light infantry and Rifles seem to have had a dark green glengarry with either a black, or red pom pom, depending again on Royal association.

By the way, I have several times seen photos of undress frocks with 6-buttons, often (but not exclusively) of bandsmen, although 7 and 5 are definitely more usual.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 04 Nov 2012 12:26

Another bit of detail required.
The collar had a crown either side for some time then it changed to the east yorkshire rose badge as shown below.
Any dates for the prescribed changes. I am presuming 1881 reforms would have allowed the crown to be changed at that time, just wondering if there where any prescribed additions to this rule.

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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 04 Nov 2012 12:45

psc945 wrote:Another bit of detail required.
The collar had a crown either side for some time then it changed to the east yorkshire rose badge as shown below.
Any dates for the prescribed changes. I am presuming 1881 reforms would have allowed the crown to be changed at that time, just wondering if there where any prescribed aditions to this rule.

Paul C


An 8-pointed star with the number 15 (in Arabic digits) inset within a surrounding laurel wreath was authorised in 1872. After 1881 the version you posted, with a rose replacing the 15 was adopted.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 04 Nov 2012 12:56

In this picture from the display in Victoria Barracks, now 'Morrisons'.
The Sergeant has the Rose centred star as collar dogs, the buttons seem to be queens crown general service, the medal is of South Africa 1902. So it appears to be showing post 1902.

Uniform in Morrisons display Beverley.jpg
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Morrisons display Beverley a.jpg
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 04 Nov 2012 13:00

Paul C[/quote]

An 8-pointed star with the number 15 (in Arabic digits) inset within a surrounding laurel wreath was authorised in 1872. After 1881 the version you posted, with a rose replacing the 15 was adopted.[/quote]


But does this mean they would have had a star with a 15 on the collar. I understand this was for the headress used at the time, being glengarry or helmet/shako. I was under the impression all infantry would have had a Queens crown on the collar.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 04 Nov 2012 13:07

Regarding the display, they have put a label in the case saying it is 1890. Although they say Circa 1890.
The uniform would have had to have been worn with that medal post 1902.

Morrisons display card a.jpg
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 04 Nov 2012 18:32

psc945 wrote:But does this mean they would have had a star with a 15 on the collar. I understand this was for the headress used at the time, being glengarry or helmet/shako. I was under the impression all infantry would have had a Queens crown on the collar.


From around 1874 the crown was worn by those regiments that had opted not to have a special regimental 'device' as a collar badge.

Like most of the older regiments that already had 2 battalions prior to 1881, the 15th chose to have their own special collar badge that was a smaller version of the then head dress badge. This was authorised by AO in 1872 and taken into wear in 1874, although there is pictorial evidence that Sergeants had worn the badge on their collars even before it was officially accepted by the War Office.

After 1881 the badge was modified to bear the central rose, in lieu of the number 15, as I have described.

Do you require a quote of the AOs or is what I have told you sufficient?
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 04 Nov 2012 18:38

psc945 wrote:Regarding the display, they have put a label in the case saying it is 1890. Although they say Circa 1890.
The uniform would have had to have been worn with that medal post 1902.



Many of the museums make errors like this, as not all take the trouble to research the necessary minutiae of AOs and LofCs etc. It is best not to take all of the displays at face value.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 04 Nov 2012 18:49

psc945 wrote:In this picture from the display in Victoria Barracks, now 'Morrisons'.
The Sergeant has the Rose centred star as collar dogs, the buttons seem to be queens crown general service, the medal is of South Africa 1902. So it appears to be showing post 1902.




The tunic shown has white shoulder straps and so is 1913 pattern, as explained in my post above of 16 Oct 2012 10:11. Other indicators of this pattern change are the absence of a ticket pocket in the waist seam and the two slashed and piped mock flaps with 6-buttons on the rear of the skirt.

It is quite possible (even probable) that the buttons, collar badges and medal ribbon all have separate provenances and were brought together purely for the display figure.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 04 Nov 2012 23:42

That's what I believe, many museums do not go into exact detail but sometimes mix periods to show a historic display.
Not always correct.
Have found some buttons and one has the 15 inside the star, officers button was stated. and no dates.
The dates given do not seem right but I have no way of checking.

What you have said is very sufficient for me, very much appreciated.
I would appreciate a copy of the AO's if it is not too much of a job. But dont spend any time if it is more than a couple of pages.

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