Uniform of the 15th Regiment of foot

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Uniform of the 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 10 Oct 2012 00:22

Need info on the uniform , detail.
What tunics did they wear at Home and Foreign service. Number of buttons etc. I know the uniform changed from the reform of 1881, the yellow collar and military ponted cuffs went to buff collar and jam pot cuffs, but not clear to me when the piping on the epaulets was used etc;
I do have a photo that I found in the foyer of the morrisons supermarket that now stands on the grounds of the previous victoria barracks that the regiment used in the past. but it gives me some detail but not enough.

Attached.

Paul C
East Yorkshire
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 10 Oct 2012 00:37

Have another photo they have up in Morrisons. It shows a parade, I can see the military cuffs and piped epaulets. So presume that this was Parade uniform at the time. But they would be using plain jam-pot cuffs and no piping on epaulets, only down front of tunic for normal duty at home. Would they have used tunic or frock without the piping down the front?

Attached pic for reference.

Paul C
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 16 Oct 2012 10:03

psc945 wrote:Need info on the uniform , detail.
What tunics did they wear at Home and Foreign service. Number of buttons etc. I know the uniform changed from the reform of 1881, the yellow collar and military ponted cuffs went to buff collar and jam pot cuffs, but not clear to me when the piping on the epaulets was used etc;
I do have a photo that I found in the foyer of the morrisons supermarket that now stands on the grounds of the previous victoria barracks that the regiment used in the past. but it gives me some detail but not enough.

Attached.

Paul C
East Yorkshire


The soldiers in this first photo are wearing the 7-button full dress tunic and are dressed in guard order (one ammunition pouch). They are wearing the 1881 pattern tunic with so-called 'jam pot cuff' and the white collar and cuffs indicates an English or Welsh regiment without a Royal prefix to its title. This pattern of tunic stayed in use until it was replaced in 1902. Full dress tunics always had white piping down the front edge.

Undress frocks of the 'home service' pattern did not have white piping down the front edge of the garment and, unlike the full dress tunic, could have 5, 6, or 7-buttons and sometimes flapped hip pockets too. They were more loose fitting and made of inferior (cheaper and more coarse) cloth. The India pattern frock (used by troops garrisoned there) was unlined, but as full dress was not provided overseas, it was often piped (under regimental arrangement) for the SNCOs, band and drums.

The regimental colours are 'piled' (i.e. formally displayed) on drums and the star that you can see on the drum bears a white rose of York, the emblazon used by the East Yorks Regiment.

I enclose some larger images of the same pattern of tunic, but for different regiments. Notice the shape of the cuffs.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 16 Oct 2012 10:11

psc945 wrote:Have another photo they have up in Morrisons. It shows a parade, I can see the military cuffs and piped epaulets. So presume that this was Parade uniform at the time. But they would be using plain jam-pot cuffs and no piping on epaulets, only down front of tunic for normal duty at home. Would they have used tunic or frock without the piping down the front?

Attached pic for reference.

Paul C


The soldiers in this second photo are also in 7-button full dress review order, but this time they are wearing the 1902 pattern tunic that had pointed cuffs and white piping around the shoulder straps. Apart from a few minor alterations this tunic stayed the same until the final pattern of 1913 changed the shoulder straps to all white, the piping on the rear to a more elaborate 'slashed' form, and removed the inset ticket pocket from the waist seam.

In the centre of the photo is the band, which appears to be 'filing' into church (you can see grave stones behind the soldiers lining the route). This might well be the 'regimental chapel' (probably in Beverley Minster - a Cathedral) and a 'thanksgiving service', perhaps after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. Such church services are a tradition still followed upon return from operations today and are a part of the British Army's culture. In past times full dress was always worn for such services. However, another, very strong possibility is that it is the ceremonial laying up of colours, an event that takes place approx every 25-years, when new colours are furnished and old colours laid up. This would explain the guard of honour that can be seen at the rear of the band and it would also have taken place at the regimental chapel at Beverley.

I enclose some larger colour images of the 1913 pattern of tunic, but for a different English regiment. Notice the white collar and cuffs and shoulder strap, and the piped slashes and buttons on the rear. The B&W photo shows the 1902 pattern and you can clearly see the piped shoulder straps.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Albert J » 16 Oct 2012 14:46

psc945 wrote:Need info on the uniform , detail.
What tunics did they wear at Home and Foreign service. Number of buttons etc. I know the uniform changed from the reform of 1881, the yellow collar and military ponted cuffs went to buff collar and jam pot cuffs, but not clear to me when the piping on the epaulets was used etc;
I do have a photo that I found in the foyer of the morrisons supermarket that now stands on the grounds of the previous victoria barracks that the regiment used in the past. but it gives me some detail but not enough.

Attached.

Paul C
East Yorkshire


Paul,

If I might further add to FROGSMILES post. Home Service Dress: Yes, jam pot cuffs until 1902,then pointed, piping on the shoulder straps remained until 1913, when they (shoulder straps) changed to all white. The undress Home Service frock pre 1902 and post 1902 is as FROGSMILE describes and would have been worn for most occasions at home.

On active service khaki would have been worn, either cotton, or serge frocks, depending on the year post 1896. The khaki frocks,cotton as well as serge (1899 pattern), would have 5 general service buttons down the front ( a total of 9, including shoulder straps and pockets,1901 service dress has 11 buttons, 5 to the front, 1 each for shoulder straps, 1each for 4 pockets). The buttons used on the serge frocks are the larger size seen on the full and undress scarlet frocks,except for their shoulder straps and pockets. The khaki cotton frocks having a medium size button, used throughout, as employed on the shoulder straps of the full and undress frocks.

Shown below is an o/r's Home Service undress scarlet serge of the West Yorkshire Regiment with label and details, dated 1912. 7 button, un-piped front. No piping detail to the rear. This would be similar in appearance to the pre-1902 undress serge with consideration to the minor change of details as described in this thread.

EDIT: FROGSMILE: Yes of course, shoulder straps, not epauletts.

James
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 16 Oct 2012 17:25

There is a slight trans-atlantic difference in terminology here that can sometimes cause confusion. In British English epaulettes (a word of French origin and so hence our spelling of it) are decorative items fitted to a shoulder strap (or passant in French). Thus the plain strap, without any embellishment, is known in the British Army as a 'shoulder strap'. Epaulettes have not been worn since the 19th Century, other than on Court Dress such as the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen at Arms, or the chain mail type used on some cavalry unit's blue patrol jackets. I understand that in American English the term 'epaulet' is used for both decorative and base items.

Incidentally I am wondering if the 2 photos posted by the OP are possibly from the same event. It would not surprise me if there were not enough of the 'new' 1902 tunics for other than the band, route lining party and guard of honour and the remainder of the battalion, including the two soldiers guarding the piled colours, were still wearing the 1881 pattern. This would not be impossible if the photo were taken around the end of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war and the new tunics were (as is the norm) on phased issue.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Albert J » 16 Oct 2012 18:48

FROGSMILE wrote:Incidentally I am wondering if the 2 photos posted by the OP are possibly from the same event. It would not surprise me if there were not enough of the 'new' 1902 tunics for other than the band, route lining party and guard of honour and the remainder of the battalion, including the two soldiers guarding the piled colours, were still wearing the 1881 pattern. This would not be impossible if the photo were taken around the end of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war and the new tunics were (as is the norm) on phased issue.


FROGSMILE, would they be wearing two different orders of dress for the same event? I ask for my own education. Guard order and one pouch as in the 1st photo of the original post, and review order, no ammo pouches, as shown in the second photo of the OP? The colors in the 1st photo are lacking the wreaths around the finial as shown in the second photo. I am not totaly familiar with the process of presenting new colors and the laying up of the old.
James
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 16 Oct 2012 19:16

Albert J wrote:
FROGSMILE wrote:Incidentally I am wondering if the 2 photos posted by the OP are possibly from the same event. It would not surprise me if there were not enough of the 'new' 1902 tunics for other than the band, route lining party and guard of honour and the remainder of the battalion, including the two soldiers guarding the piled colours, were still wearing the 1881 pattern. This would not be impossible if the photo were taken around the end of the 2nd Anglo/Boer war and the new tunics were (as is the norm) on phased issue.


FROGSMILE, would they be wearing two different orders of dress for the same event? I ask for my own education. Guard order and one pouch as in the 1st photo of the original post, and review order, no ammo pouches, as shown in the second photo of the OP? The colors in the 1st photo are lacking the wreaths around the finial as shown in the second photo. I am not totaly familiar with the process of presenting new colors and the laying up of the old.
James


The presentation of new colours and the laying up of old colours are entirely different and usually separate ceremonies. The former is more of a drill parade and the latter is more of a church parade. In the Victorian era each regiment had its own way of doing things with only 'guidance' from a common drill manual. Today things are much more prescribed and 'directed' by precise regulation, largely because, with the exception of the Guards, drill plays a much smaller part in a units life. For example whereas the slow march was originally a part of basic training until as late as the 1990s, it is no longer taught until just before a specific occasion for which it is required.

To answer your specific questions, the two soldiers 'guarding' the piled colours would usually be in guard order with bayonets fixed (at that time), yes James. The guard of honour in review order and (for laying up) the remainder of the battalion in church parade order (no arms). It can vary depending on how many are on parade. The wreaths would not be on the finials when 'piled'. They are fitted when carried by the two subaltern officers (originally titled 'ensigns') and 'escorted' by two SNCOs, usually (but not always) Colour Serjeants (and known formally as 'escort to the colours'. When 'piled' they are guarded by rank and file, with bayonets fixed, as seen in the first photo.

However, it is just my completely speculative guess that the photos might be from the same event and I could easily be wrong.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 28 Oct 2012 18:14

I apreciate the information, has been an education for me. We do ww1 and ww2 east yorkshire regiment and we are trying to add an ordinary rank soldier to our line up at events, from the 15th regiment of foot or later East Yorkshire Regiment, this was my intention but due to the vast amount of vaiations we feel it best to start at post 1881.
I was looking at depicting the soldiers guarding the colours. I do not know if the pictures displayed in Morrison's in Beverley ( now built on the old site of the Victoria Barracks, the main residence of the 15th regiment / east yorkshire regiment ) are from the same event or date.
Easier to start with the basic set up. My question on that would be what would the rear of the soldier Guarding the colours tunic look like. Also if I was to be asked to assist in laying a reath at rememberance I would need to be wearing the uniform depicted correctly for the cerimony, I would like to depict that uniform which would have been worn imediately post 1881, any clear detail would be apreciated. I understand many changes where not taken up as quickly in some areas and supply meant some continued with old uniforms and acutriments for some time. So need to be reasonably acurate if I am to portray it correctly.
I realise slade wallace kit came in 1888, have been looking through the Soldiers Acoutriments of the British Army 1750 - 1900, which is very helpfull on kit brought in at specific periods. Just for parade it appears just uniform and belt is sufficient, with hanging bayonet and frog.
I have aquired a lot of equipment but need to use only that for the task in question, I then need to obtain a correct tunic. I may need two so ensure I can do guarding and cerimonies.
Any help is appreciated.
Still not clear when the white piping came in for the shoulder straps, I understand 1881 resulted in jam pot cuffs, the pointed cuffs came in 1902, the shoulder straps became all white in 1913.

Paul C
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 28 Oct 2012 19:39

psc945 wrote:My question on that would be what would the rear of the soldier Guarding the colours tunic look like. Also if I was to be asked to assist in laying a reath at rememberance I would need to be wearing the uniform depicted correctly for the cerimony, I would like to depict that uniform which would have been worn imediately post 1881, any clear detail would be apreciated. I understand many changes where not taken up as quickly in some areas and supply meant some continued with old uniforms and acutriments for some time. So need to be reasonably acurate if I am to portray it correctly.
I realise slade wallace kit came in 1888, have been looking through the Soldiers Acoutriments of the British Army 1750 - 1900, which is very helpfull on kit brought in at specific periods. Just for parade it appears just uniform and belt is sufficient, with hanging bayonet and frog.

Still not clear when the white piping came in for the shoulder straps, I understand 1881 resulted in jam pot cuffs, the pointed cuffs came in 1902, the shoulder straps became all white in 1913.

Paul C


1. The 1881 jampot cuff tunic had a plain scarlet shoulder trap with no piping (see close up of fusilier image). The shouder title 'E YORKSHIRE' was embroidered in white worsted thread. The piped straps came in with the 1902 tunic.

2. The back of the jampot cuff tunic comprised just two vertical lines of white piping with a GS button at the top of each (see rear view image).

3. To be dressed correctly you need a slade wallace belt of the period with a Victorian crowned GS buckle and perhaps a bayonet frog. To be escort to the colours at that time you would generally have a single ammunition pouch, but this was later omitted and is not essential.

The following sites are good for repro uniforms but I recommend that you seek advice about suppliers from the reenactors group the DIEHARDS: http://www.thediehards.co.uk/

1. http://militaryheritage.com/

2. http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/zulu.html

3. http://thehistorybunker.co.uk/

4. http://www.scotlandproductsonline.com/t ... -cuff.html
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 28 Oct 2012 20:23

As you can see this is what I was intending, I now have the idea of the rear of the Tunic.
so I can do post 1881. The only draw back at present apart from tunic detail is the helmet plate centre. It needs to be the post 1881 rose as shown in the picture. I have the helmet and the main plate but it has a Green Howards centre (19th Reg of Foot) at present. So I am trying to locate a rose East Yorks centre.

But your information is great Thanks, now getting close to the detail I need.
Is there any books with this information, it would be good to have the regimental changes if it has been made available.

Paul C
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 28 Oct 2012 23:17

psc945 wrote:As you can see this is wat I was intending, now have the idea of the rear of the Tunic.
so I can do post 1881. The only draw back at present apart from tunic detail is the helmet plate centre. It needs to be the post 1881 rose as shown in the picture. I have the helmet and the main plate but it has a Green Howards centre (19th Reg of Foot) at present. So I am trying to locate a rose East Yorks centre.

But your information is great Thanks, now getting close to the detail I need.
Is there any books with this information, it would be good to have the regimental changes if it has been made available.

Paul C


If you get just one book on the uniform changes that you are interested in I would recommend that it is this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Thin-Red-Li ... 1872004008
and this company can provide your East Yorks helmet plate centre: http://www.militaria.co.uk/badges.asp?C ... catid=5037
It would be useful for you also to have a glengarry for undress wear, as to be authentic you should never be without head dress when in public and a helmet is inappropriate for wear all of the time.
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 29 Oct 2012 01:17

Have the Glengarry and the badge for it.
Have a grey back shirt and Braces, so can do the cleaning of my rifle etc: as you would do in barracks and at camp.
Have mess kit and some extras, so can even have a brew.

Will check out the links you have given, thanks again all helpfull stuff.

Paul C
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby Frogsmile » 29 Oct 2012 10:09

psc945 wrote:Have the Glengarry and the badge for it.
Have a grey back shirt and Braces, so can do the cleaning of my rifle etc: as you would do in barracks and at camp.
Have mess kit and some extras, so can even have a brew.

Will check out the links you have given, thanks again all helpfull stuff.

Paul C


You are clearly getting to where you want to be Paul. The 'diehards' (link above) have years of experience in replicating the exact period that you are interested in and they are very authentic, taking great care to get things right. I do recommend that you contact them for advice concerning suppliers and any detailed queries about kit and equipment.

Incidentally I notice that you use 'psc' as part of your forum user name. Are you 'passed staff college', or does it mean something else?
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Re: 15th Regiment of foot

Postby psc945 » 29 Oct 2012 20:54

No , I just use my old PC number, but use my main initials too.
Thats all.
I have been in touch with the Diehards some time ago, keep meaning to see them in action one day, they did invite me. When I can get time I will pop and see them with my kit in the boot , so I can get some more info.

Paul C
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