MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby Albert J » 09 Apr 2015 02:39

Alex,

Nice pouch. It is in fact the Mk.III version. If you look at your third photo it does show the hog skin pulls are indeed seated behind a leather retaining strap. The low location of this strap identifies it as a Mk.III, the location on the Mk.II is an inch higher.

You state that the pouch was made by Hobson & Son. I'm curious, is there a makers mark or stamp???

James
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby AlexReece » 09 Apr 2015 08:30

Hello James

You are a wealth of information and I thank you for clearing that up for me, the Hobson stamp is above the owners name and in red dye.
I should have posted a image I do apologise, I shall post one for you my friend.

These pouches seem hard to come by these days and i'm in ore of your excellent collection James and just want to thank you for sharing with us. :-)

Regards Alex.
'And Who Do You Think Is Coming To Wipe Out Your Little Command....The Grenadier Guards'
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby Albert J » 09 Apr 2015 13:19

Thanks Alex. Now that you mention the stamps location I can make it out in one of your photos. I've always thought of Hobson & Son as a supplier to the officer class as opposed to a Government contractor to the ranks. Thanks for posting this.

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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby AlexReece » 09 Apr 2015 17:02

Hello James

Yes that's my thoughts exactly my friend, when I obtained the pouch I was not told about the Hobson & Sons stamp ?
So you can imagine my surprise when I gave the pouch a dusting and the stamp was there.
Soon as I'm back home I will put a close up image of the stamp James.

Cheers
Alex
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby AlexReece » 10 Apr 2015 09:47

Hello James

As promised the Hobsons & Sons stamp on the inside pouch lid.
Shame the date was not legible ?

Hobsons Stam 1.jpg
Hobsons Stam 1.jpg (335.89 KiB) Viewed 947 times

Hobsons Stamp 2.jpg
Hobsons Stamp 2.jpg (407.31 KiB) Viewed 947 times



Regards Alex
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 25 Jun 2015 19:07

Excellent thread! Correct me if im wrong, but here is my 1888 mk1 Slade Wallace belt and shoulder straps. Is anyone able to tell whether the shoulder straps are of the same date as the belt or whether they are an earlier/later creation. The item certainly gives off that dusty attic aroma, appears to have been gathering dust for a century. Sorry about the wooden pegs, they are only temporary. Sadly the item has its fair share of rips its another conservation job :P Im also wondering what is everyone's opinion to re-stitching leather together? The shoulder straps are near severed on one end so what would everyone else recommend due to this scenario?

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby Albert J » 27 Jun 2015 11:11

gregory128,

I'll throw my two cents in... Study the pics in this thread of the pattern 88 valise equipment and look for any similarities. Your belt has the appearance of the more modern parade belt, and not the issue '88, or "Slade Wallace" belt. I saw this on ebay and my first thought was Naval, but now seeing your pics I don't have a clue as it does not conform to standard pattern '88 criteria.It's also possible this was a rig made for a Colonial soldier/officer, during the Boer War. Good luck on your quest, wish I could have been more help.

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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 28 Jun 2015 17:10

Hi James, thanks for the advice. What is noticeable is that the belt is made of one whole strap of leather rather then 3 separate pieces which is conveyed in this forum. Perhaps im wrong, but the later mk 2/3's were made up of separate strands of leather compared to a single strip. The straps are held together by leather pockets which may not be so evident by the picture but it certainly the case. The buckle is certainly not a post 1901 make, as it still has a queens crown. I would like to point out that the Australian War Memorial website has the exact piece. What is interesting however is that my example seems to be unaltered. The back braces being held by brass buckles instead of square brass rings as shown on the website. Sadly i think i will need to restitch some of the leather back together as its been badly worn and therefore contains various rips and punctures and if hung up on a mannequin will merely snap.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL27602.001/
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby Albert J » 29 Jun 2015 10:57

gregory128 wrote: Perhaps im wrong, but the later mk 2/3's were made up of separate strands of leather compared to a single strip.


What are the later Mk.2/3's you refer to?

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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 29 Jun 2015 13:34

Well, notice how my belt is made up of 1 section of leather. The later additions are composed of 3 sections of leather divided by brass fastenings. I would argue your image Albert of the Mk1 maybe in fact a later variant. Again the Australian war memorial features an example of a mk2 belt. This example being shown on the following link:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/03159.001

Sadly i have yet to get hold of the official list of changes publication so i am reliant on the secondary sources such as the Australian war memorial website.

Image

What i find rather unique to the mark 1 is that the rear hooks are held together a single leather backing. The mark 2's brass hooks are held together by a double leather backing. Sorry if this is confusing, its hard to explain.

I provide a quotation from the Australian war memorial website:

'In the Mark II belt the buckles were sewn within the double-thickness of leather at the centre back section.' If you look closely the below image will emphasize my point.

Image

Notice how the rear straps are held together by studs and a single leather backing on the image below:

Image
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 29 Jun 2015 15:55

I would like to state that a mark 3 slade wallace is mentioned. I have yet to understand how this differs to a mark 2.
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby Albert J » 30 Jun 2015 11:17

gregory128,
The designations I use, Mk.1,2,3, when speaking of 1888 Valise Equipment etc ...refer to the changes in the issue pouches as described in the List of Changes. The belt remained as I have pictured from 1888-1902, with 3 D rings stitched into the rear central section of the belt. Always 3 D rings, always stitched, not riveted.

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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 30 Jun 2015 17:12

Interesting James, I suspect that the belt came in three stages. I recall you reading out a date of one of your 3D ring belts to 1891. It is stated on the link that the 'list of changes 6504' brought about the mark 2 with the 3D rings. If this is correct then this means that Lancashire Rifle Volunteers were one of the first regiments to receive this brand new belt, aka the mark 2 1888 pattern.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL27379.001/


1891 from the above shown highlights when it came into action. The 3D rings which you have explained may have always been stitched as its a later piece. But the mark 1 seems to be a riveted piece. Notice the description of this mark 1 belt:
'The two straps are held together at the centre back by a buff leather keeper which is secured with two rivets'.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/18395.006/

From variants examined the earlier mark 1 belts share this similarity. The later addition mark 2 as you say is stitched. This is perhaps to allow for greater adjustment and easier strap removal. Again mark 3 belts i have yet to determine how they differ from the mark 2.

Notice how my belt provides that flimsy fragile appearance. This may be down to age. But i think the origin comes from the bringing about of the mark 2. The mark 2 being made of 2 stitched pieces of leather gives the belt strength. Mine on the other hand being riveted weakens the leather. On top of that the single band of leather rather then the reinforced appearance means its more susceptible to breakage. This may be the cause for the mark 2 1888 belt which only came out 3 years after the original.
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby rd72 » 30 Jun 2015 19:48

Hi all,

I am following the conversation here in recent posts and I am confused as it's focus... Please excuse the request for clarification... Gregory, are you trying to ascertain the fact as to whether your belt is a Slade Wallace example? With the rivets, and no visible holes left over from the stitching (see below) at the back it doesn't conform to the "Slade Wallace" pattern...


I am also confused by the mention of a Mk III belt... I don't know of any such designation of a P88 belt... Pierre Turner has a a good diagram of both the Mk I and II belt in his book... The Mk I was made of a single length with three individual pieces of leather at the back that were stitched to the belt to enclose the three "D's"... The Mk II of 1891 had the centre back section, doubled up, stitched to enclose the "D's" and joined to the ends with brass loops. An economy on leather I should think...

Apologies if I have missed the mark here...
Cheers,
Rob
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Re: MASTER THREAD: Slade-Wallace Equipment

Postby gregory128 » 30 Jun 2015 23:42

Hi Rob, evidently i have been extremely vague and for that i am to blame. My apologies. I think the conversation is trying to conform to all of those pointers. Pierre Turner does indeed provide a good diagram of the belt, however i am finding contradiction to his claim of the no stitching idea through the description given by the Australian war memorial which records their mark 1 belt being a riveted one compared to stitched. It begs the question whether this is standard for a select number of mark 1 1888 pattern, if this is a later repair or as you say this is a slade wallace at all which i am inclined to believe it is.

The question i would also like to bring up which i have touched on lightly is the Australian war memorial description of a mark III belt. - " The Mark III belt was made in three sections of leather joined by brass rings." - I am in confusion on whether this is a typing error on the websites behalf or if this is true. I suspect this is a typing error as its been mentioned only once in which i must apologies for leading the members of this forum on a wild goose chase. However i thought it may as well be brought up to avoid future confusion.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/18353.003/
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