Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era?

For all discussions relating to military uniforms, insignia, equipment and medals of the Victorian period.

Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Jocktamson » 12 Jan 2012 14:21

OK ED, heres some pics of the water Bottle as requested. Ive removed the strap to show how it attaches to the water bottle. Yes there is a hole through the stopper the string threads through it and is attached to the strap, It doesn't conform to any type of British military Water bottle I know of, I thought maybe a prototype which was never adopted by the British Army, hence the defacing of the letters on the front.

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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 13 Jan 2012 07:09

Wow...I see some strange things. Is the body of the bottle laminated like plywood or paneling for a wall? It sure looks like the wrap around covering is de-laminating on the bottom. Is that a seam on the back that is comeing apart? The grain looks like a shaved plywood or paneling grain. If the wrapping of the bottle material was not laminate, the thin walls of the body would easily break where the straps go through the top of the bottle body.

The buckle has a roller on it. Is that period for British victoriana? The broad arrow, (Crows foot), is awfully weakly inked. It looks like a marker pen.

The defacing of any mark on the front looks like the scar has exposed lamination.

If all of what I think I see is true, this is some late 20th century school shop project....Tell me it ain't so.
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Jocktamson » 13 Jan 2012 12:51

Yes it has a laminated outer body, for all I know it could be a school project, that's why I asked for opinions on it. the Crows foot is very thinly inked into it, but it doesn't look like its been done with a pen or marker I would expect to see some bleeding of the ink into the surrounding areas of the buff leather, which are not apparent. But all in all I am still totally baffled as to what it is.
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby pittpiper » 13 May 2012 22:43

I just picked up this water bottle, and thought I would share a photo. I believe it is an 1895 pattern bottle (certainly very similar), but I was surprised at how small it was: only about 6 inches (16 cm) in diameter. Remnants of a strap and cork remain. It is chipped around the edges the body has most of it blue enamel in tact.
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Albert J » 14 May 2012 13:38

Pittpiper,

Your nice acquisition does appear to be the 1895 MkIV water bottle. Typically the circumference of these Mk.IV's is 7" inches with the felt or serge material cover intact. Shoulder straps were usually buff leather with a brass roller buckle, nickle in some cases for Volunteers. It's not uncommon to see these MK.IV's with brown or black leather shoulder straps. In 1901 some were issued with a webbing strap and brass roller buckle. Below are examples of 1895 Mk.IV water bottles with various covers and shoulder straps. The first one on the left with the black serge cover is an officer's private purchase made by Hobson and Sons. The one to it's right is a Rifles issue water bottle with dark felt cover over khaki enameling and black leather shoulder strap.

James
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby pittpiper » 15 May 2012 23:05

James,

Thank you for confirming that this one is in fact an 1895 pattern. Unfortunately the strap is in poor shape, but I believe it was probably originally brown leather. The buckle is very rusted, and I am unable to tell what type of metal it is.

The Rifle regiment water bottle in your collection particularly interesting. I have never seen the khaki enamel before. I friend of mine has one that is grey enamel. Have you heard of or seen that before?

Sam
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Albert J » 16 May 2012 12:32

Hi Sam,

There are two water bottles that have gray enamel bodies posted in this thread. The first starts off this thread with Andrews post, the second I posted on page three. The gray enamel is not as common as the blue but they do exist and are typically late Victorian. That being said, I've only ever seen this on the smaller oval shaped ones as pictured here, and on a few of the tear drop shaped Mk.III's with the Italian type stopper and bung. Sam, is it possible to obtain permission and post a pic of your friends bottle?

James
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby pittpiper » 16 May 2012 14:54

James,

Yes, I will have him send me a few pictures. It may take a few days, but I will post them when I get them.

Thanks,

Sam
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Cal F » 20 Jun 2012 13:26

I am glad that this thread has expanded beyond Andrew's original question as water bottles of all eras are a particular intrest to me and I'm learning all kinds of new info. It is also good that Andrew got his answer, it looks like Pvt. Duchene's [Canadian Mounted Rifles] water bottle may be British liberated by Canadian soldiers, I still think it looks like Andrew's bottle.

New theory on the leather covered glass water bottle it may be Oliver Pattern MS much as the 1 pint glass Oliver, as I have found out these were issued by The Canadian Government during the Boar War.

James great pix & info, PM sent as to where I found your water bottle.

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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Albert J » 21 Jun 2012 14:43

Hi Cal F,

Thanks!

Not to beat a dead horse...I found this pick on the web posted by a dealer in the U.K. Same body size and khaki serge cover as Andrew's in the OP (open in two windows to compare). Though with a greenish enamel, it has the same rolled lip. It also has a full webbing shoulder strap and slide buckle. These were issued very late in the Boer War, but did make it to South Africa in time for "mopping up" operations as indicated by period photos. More common in use though with the 1902 SD following the war.

James
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby pittpiper » 29 Jun 2012 23:16

Here are a couple pictures for comparison. My blue water bottle and my friend's which is grey enamel. You can't see too much of the bottle because of the cover (reproduction), but it appears to have a rolled lip. It is also slightly larger than my blue enamel version.

Sam
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Jerry B » 14 Aug 2012 18:17

Picked this example up today and in not too bad condition, though missing it's cloth cover and the chain for the stopper. It is however nicely maker marked (Samuel Brothers) on the stopper and has unit markings on the strap, Ico Ist VBWR 665, which I think is I or 1 company 1st Volunteer Battalion Welsh Regiment and as I bought it in Carmarthenshire which was part of the recruiting area for this regiment, I assume I am correct, though if others know better that would be good.

Regards,

Jerry
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Regards,

Jerry
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby Jerry B » 19 Aug 2012 09:22

A friend on another forum thought that it would be WR for WORCS. Regiment and it would have been WEL for the Welsh Regiment.

Regards,

Jerry
Regards,

Jerry
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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby psc945 » 23 Nov 2012 21:40

Just received my Italian style water bottle, from IMA.
The only thing is it has lead bands, which I thought should be sheet steel.
the stopper looks good but what and how was the stopper attached to the top, it doesnt look right type of cord.
Also i may need to whittle some wood to get the wooden stopper correct for the top.
Any comments.

Paul C

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Re: Water bottles: patterns in use in the late Victorian era

Postby canteenmanusa » 05 Dec 2014 00:59

Fellows,The preceeding year(2012) of water bottle(canteen)discussion has only served to excite my interest in an area that comprises my "sole" area of military collecting. I have read it and reread it ten times and still have some confusion. Part of my confusion derives from my primarily collecting American Civil War canteens(as we call the water bottle)I will call my canteens waterbottles in all future discussions, hoping to avoid confusion and to enhence clarity . "Confusion " was what compelled me to delve into Canadian-British water bottles. They were frequently offered at our Civil War shows over the last twenty years as "Conferate or US Experimental" The first of these that I encountered at our shows were Mark 1V Enameled -Blue oblate spearoid(Flattened basketball shape) and the second was an "Oliver Italian Pattern wood keg that I first thought must have been a maple sugar can. So I like to say, I entered the British world water bottle collecting field in self defence. I needed to have definitive documentation(pictures and printed words) to bolster my arguments with my fellow dealers at shows when Im disputed their offerings parentage. Rarely do they appreciate it when I quietly ask, Do you want to know what that canteen you are offering really is? They usually say "yes!" but they really would rather not know. Enought of that! My preliminary Question is this,When does the term"Enamel" mean "Porcelain" glazed as in Mark IV Blue and does it ever mean paint ,like oil-based enamel paint for your house? can I assume we all mean porceain-glazed enamel when someone in the forum says "Enameled" and also assume they will say "painted" when otherwise color coated? In the way of eye interest I am adding the picture of "ENAMELED" oblate-spearoid water bottles I have found myself in possession of upon opening the drawer. I hope to start a further discussion of the serge covered 6 1/2 inch rolled rim tin or steal oblate spearoid kinda mustard green covered water bottle that James covered back in 2012 ,that was argued to and fro whether it 's like was private-boy scout maybe or late British Boer war circa 1902( that is what I think!)Please please does anyone know? That is a fight for another day. I have already said too much and probably worn out my welcome![im[iImagemg][/img]g][/img]
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