ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

For all discussions relating to military uniforms, insignia, equipment and medals of the Victorian period.

ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby ardyer » 08 Sep 2017 20:46

https://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk ... 6-471-1jpg

If you use this link you can go to View larger image under the photo.
Could I have a bit of help to identify the uniform and date of this photograph please. Using the larger image I got an excellent view of the belt buckle but unfortunately it does not mean anything to me.
The context is that it was taken by a Hereford photographer.
ardyer
New Member
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 11 Aug 2017 16:56
Location: Herefordshire

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 08 Sep 2017 21:51

It is the uniform of a County Lieutenant (almost certainty for Herefordshire). This historic post is inextricably linked with the British Sovereign and was originally responsible for the County 'levy', by which a monarch raised an army from the citizens of the nation. For several centuries he commanded the County Militia. Over the centuries the post has been modified but it still exists albeit with a much less important role. There are traditionally three grades, The Lord Lieutenant (originally just Lieutenant but so many were peers), the Vice Lieutenant and the Deputy Lieutenant. The uniform is styled on that of a military officer on the general staff but with silver lace in place of gold. Originally in scarlet and following the varying military fashion of its relevant time, since WW2 it has been in the style of a blue patrol uniform (originally an undress outfit). The three grades/levels had slight differences to their uniform reflecting their status, but precise details of these would require research. The pattern of uniform in your photo is that adopted in 1902 (before that year a scarlet coatee with tails was worn) and can also be seen here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q85yFJfK_UY/T ... 00/006.JPG Head wear was invariably a bicorn hat with white over red falling plume of Ostrich/Vulture feathers. I think that the photo you have shows the higher ranking, Lord Lieutenant, with silver lace in oak leaf pattern (there was also a clover pattern), although he wears an undress belt, which might indicate the Vice position, I am unsure. The Deputy Lieutenant had two horizontal silver lace bands to collar and cuffs, as well as a slash and buttons on the latter.
You can read about how the role evolved here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Lieutenant
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby ardyer » 09 Sep 2017 09:29

Frogsmile

Thank you so much. Is there no end to your knowledge?

With someone who was so high profile locally with a little more effort I should be able to give him a name, which is always pleasing. Also I do have some other men similarly attired so I can look at them in a new light.
ardyer
New Member
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 11 Aug 2017 16:56
Location: Herefordshire

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Sep 2017 11:05

ardyer wrote:Frogsmile

Thank you so much. Is there no end to your knowledge?

With someone who was so high profile locally with a little more effort I should be able to give him a name, which is always pleasing. Also I do have some other men similarly attired so I can look at them in a new light.


I am glad to be of assistance, thank you for your kind words, but would wish to emphasise that there is much that I do not know. There is always something new to learn, which is a part of the fascination for me. If I can help further I will be happy to do so.

I enclose images of a deputy lieutenant's post 1902 tunic so that you can see the differences. Note the levee belt (the clasp and lace varied between English/Welsh, Scottish and Irish Counties). Also the bicorn hat of a lord lieutenant (with the button worn by all three grades).

Regards,

FS
Attachments
262.JPG
262.JPG (48.85 KiB) Viewed 238 times
262-6.JPG
262-6.JPG (136.74 KiB) Viewed 238 times
original.jpg
original.jpg (69.26 KiB) Viewed 239 times
original (1).jpg
original (1).jpg (76.67 KiB) Viewed 239 times
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby t100 » 09 Sep 2017 11:52

I'm sorry to disagree, but the point in relation to the 'slash' is not correct - the gentleman in ardyer's photo is a Deputy or Vice Lieutenant.

Tunics were officially introdiced to replace coatees for these roles in 1876, with the Lord Lieutenant's pattern being further updated in 1889.

This is the description of the 1889 regulation tunic for a 'Lieutenent of a County" (i.e. Lord Lieutenant):

TUNIC.- Scarlet Cloth ; Single-breasted ; nine Buttons in front, two behind ; edged with White Cloth ; Body and Skirts lined White, Collar, Cuffs, and Slashes of Blue Cloth Embroidered in Silver ; Slashes on Sleeve 6 inches long ; Embroidered Scarlet Slash on Skirts; Silver Plaited Shoulder Knot on each Shoulder.


While this is the description of the 1876 regulation tunic for a Vice or Deputy Lieutenent of a County:

TUNIC.- Scarlet cloth ; Single-breasted ; nine buttons in front, two behind, edged white cloth ; Body and skirts lined with white. Collar and cuffs embroidered in silver, embroidered scarlet slash on back skirt and gold embroidered badge on front edge of collar. Rose for England, Thistle for Scotland, and Shamrock for Ireland.
i.e. no slash. This is certainly the pattern worn in the photo.

These regulations pertained until 1908, when these modern-style tunics were replaced by the 'new pattern' scarlet coatee, similar to that worn before tunics were introduced in 1876. Some older men seem to have worn the pre-1876 coatee throughout the period, indeed one such is shown in some of the other Hereford photos.

PS, the tunic shown by Frogsmile is correct, but is of a pattern introduced in 1920 (not 1902) to replace the coatee for a second time.

T
Last edited by t100 on 09 Sep 2017 14:07, edited 1 time in total.
t100
Participating Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 05 Oct 2009 20:34

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Sep 2017 13:02

No need for sorrow, T, this is a classic case of there always being more to learn. I could see straightaway that ardyer had posted a County Lieutenant's uniform, but I really struggled to find the regulations that you have quoted from online and so did the best that I could via the images and captions that I could find in various, wiki type articles and auction archives. It is interesting to me to learn that the coatee and tunic each had second lives. A great surprise! I can only urge you to post much more often, please, so that the forum can benefit from your obvious knowledge at first hand.
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby t100 » 09 Sep 2017 13:41

Thanks for your kind words Frogsmile. Would that I had the time to contribute more!

I assume the coatee was reintroduced to conform more to court ceremonial uniforms, since the modern military-look introduced in 1876 (looking rather like a general of militia) was pretty anachronistic after the county Lieutenants lost their most of their real military responsibilities. This uniform was basically the 'negative' of the new blue coatee for colonial Governors, which for them replaced the standard 'civil' uniform worn by civil servants. Also, its clear that the coatee never stopped being worn in some quarters, as indeed seen in this Herefordshire image https://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk/archive/bustin-image-collection/military-portraits/166606-g36-425-7jpg?q=G36-425-7, which I would think shows the LL with the officers of the 4th KSLI (Herfordshire Militia) around 1900, certainly not as late as the 'reintroduction'. This is identifiable as the original pattern coatee from the close placement of the buttons, similar to the final army coatee used in the Crimea. In the post-1908 version, the buttons were usually wider spaced across the chest, almost moving in the direction of a lancer plastron.

Purely speculating, I imagine the coatee was found simply too theatrical in the post WW1 world, leading to the reintroduction of a tunic, again aligned with the contemporary general's full-dress.

T
t100
Participating Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 05 Oct 2009 20:34

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Sep 2017 14:06

t100 wrote:Thanks for your kind words Frogsmile. Would that I had the time to contribute more!

I assume the coatee was reintroduced to conform more to court ceremonial uniforms, since the modern military-look introduced in 1876 (looking rather like a general of militia) was pretty anachronistic after the county Lieutenants lost their most of their real military responsibilities. This uniform was basically the 'negative' of the new blue coatee for colonial Governors, which for them replaced the standard 'civil' uniform worn by civil servants. Also, its clear that the coatee never stopped being worn in some quarters, as indeed seen in this Herefordshire image https://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk/archive/bustin-image-collection/military-portraits/166606-g36-425-7jpg?q=G36-425-7, which I would think shows the LL with the officers of the 4th KSLI (Herfordshire Militia) around 1900, certainly not as late as the 'reintroduction'. This is identifiable as the original pattern coatee from the close placement of the buttons, similar to the final army coatee used in the Crimea. In the post-1908 version, the buttons were usually wider spaced across the chest, almost moving in the direction of a lancer plastron.

Purely speculating, I imagine the coatee was found simply too theatrical in the post WW1 world, leading to the reintroduction of a tunic, again aligned with the contemporary general's full-dress.

T


Yes, I think that your surmising of the rationale behind the changes is entirely convincing and likely.

Are the regulations available online?

P.S. Your excuse regarding finding the time seems a bit thin methinks. It must be better than watching today's TV!
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby t100 » 09 Sep 2017 14:51

The description formally appears in the 1891 dress regulations, which I only have in hard copy and don't believe can be found online (unlike other editions) (an aside - I wonder why the WO decided to include them in this edition as they aren't in 1883 or 1900?). However, I copied the wording from the 1912 edition of Trendell's 'Dress Worn at Court', which isn't an official source of course, but does quote the regs verbatim. This includes both the 'old' and 'new' versions of the time. This can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/dresswornathisma00trenuoft

T
t100
Participating Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 05 Oct 2009 20:34

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby t100 » 09 Sep 2017 14:59

Having looked at the 1903 version of Trendell, this clearly gives the date for introduction of the 'new' coatee as 1902 rather than 1908, as given in the 1912 edition. It seems that the description of the coatee was simply changed in 1908 to remove the ninth of the initial ten pairs of buttons in order to create room for the waistbelt, thus creating a new date for the pattern.

This doesn't affect the original question at all, as there is no impact on the identification of the 1876 tunic, but I don't like to leave an error in my initial reply.

T
t100
Participating Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 05 Oct 2009 20:34

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 09 Sep 2017 19:10

t100 wrote:The description formally appears in the 1891 dress regulations, which I only have in hard copy and don't believe can be found online (unlike other editions) (an aside - I wonder why the WO decided to include them in this edition as they aren't in 1883 or 1900?). However, I copied the wording from the 1912 edition of Trendell's 'Dress Worn at Court', which isn't an official source of course, but does quote the regs verbatim. This includes both the 'old' and 'new' versions of the time. This can be accessed at https://archive.org/details/dresswornathisma00trenuoft

T


Kicking myself, as I have 1891 DRs too, but did not spot the entries for County Lieutenants.

From the regulations then I think that we can agree that ardyer's photo seems to show a Deputy Lieutenant, as per the 1891 dress regulations. The waist belt clasp should show a rose within a laurel wreath.

I do agree that it seems very odd that the County Lieutenants dress only appears in the 1891 DRs.
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby t100 » 09 Sep 2017 21:39

By extraordinary coincidence, I have found this photo obviously taken on the same occasion, which identifies him as John Riley, High Sheriff of Herefordshire, taken 1899: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~calderdalecompanion/ph1258.html

One final note; I see he is wearing the Prince of Wales Feathers rather than the rose stipulated in the 1891 regs. This Welsh distinction was a feature of the 1902 coatee, but must also must have been added to the tunic version at some point after 1891. As a Herefordian myself I find this most interesting, as Hereford is now unambiguously in England. But perhaps he was a DL for a neighbouring county.
t100
Participating Member
 
Posts: 184
Joined: 05 Oct 2009 20:34

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Sep 2017 09:07

I had been reading about High Sherrifs of Counties when trying to track down details of County Lieutenants, but became confused when I read that County Sherrifs were the previous, Tudor and earlier equivalents of the County Lieutenants. Looking at the uniform in the image that you have posted I am at a loss to identify differences between a Sherrif's and a Lieutenant's dress uniform. I had also read something about Wales incorporating for a time Counties that are now English, I think it is something to do with boundary changes during the 20th Century.
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 4967
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby ardyer » 10 Sep 2017 14:25

t100 wrote:
this Herefordshire image https://www.herefordshirehistory.org.uk/archive/bustin-image-collection/military-portraits/166606-g36-425-7jpg?q=G36-425-7, which I would think shows the LL with the officers of the 4th KSLI (Herfordshire Militia) around 1900,T


Thank you for this, it has allowed me to give a name to the man concerned (lord Bateman) who also appears in a painting in Shire Hall (1901) as does another LL (1905), both in coatees, discovered yesterday at Heritage Open Day).
ardyer
New Member
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 11 Aug 2017 16:56
Location: Herefordshire

Re: ID please of man in dress unifom in cocked hat

Postby ardyer » 10 Sep 2017 14:28

[quote="t100"]By extraordinary coincidence, I have found this photo obviously taken on the same occasion, which identifies him as John Riley, High Sheriff of Herefordshire, taken 1899: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~calderdalecompanion/ph1258.html

One final note; I see he is wearing the Prince of Wales Feathers rather than the rose stipulated in the 1891 regs. [ quote]

Well, I feel like I have hit the jackpot, thanks you so much. About the Feathers, that was going to be my supplementary question as I have another similarly attired gent with a rose.
ardyer
New Member
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 11 Aug 2017 16:56
Location: Herefordshire

Next

Return to Uniforms, Insignia, Equipment & Medals

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest