ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

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ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 30 Aug 2017 20:22

Hello Fellow Members

I think this Regt stamp maybe 1st Leicester ? what do you think chaps ?

Stamped on inner 1871 Pat 'Valise other ranks belt'

Regards Alex

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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 30 Aug 2017 20:53

Yes, Alex, it is undoubtedly 1st Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers. The abbreviation is as laid down in clothing regulations. You might be able to trace the provenance here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... 33e74ea50e
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 30 Aug 2017 21:00

Frogsmile wrote:Yes, it is undoubtedly 1st Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers. The abbreviation is as laid down in clothing regulations.


Thank you Frogsmile as always

Strange that the buckle and hardware are Brass, unusual for vols ?

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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 30 Aug 2017 21:05

I think it was yellow candlestick brass for the pre-1881 version of the universal locket/clasp (later gilding metal), as per that you have there and it very likely did not originate with the belt, which for RVC would have been a snake clasp, as seen in the thread on Herefordshire RVC posted by 'ardyer'.
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 30 Aug 2017 21:18

Frogsmile wrote:I think it was yellow candlestick brass for the pre-1881 version of the universal locket/clasp (later gilding metal), as per that you have there and it very likely did not originate with the belt, which for RVC would have been a snake clasp, as seen in the thread on Herefordshire RVC posted by 'ardyer'.


Indeed yes, I have been following that most interesting thread.

The buckle seems to have been with the belt along time as the stitching seems original and not messed with ?

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But yes Frogsmile I agree with you about that nice yellow brass on pre 1881 buckles, Lovely colour.

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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 31 Aug 2017 09:40

It is extremely unusual for RVC to use anything but snake buckles and they were usually the province of other line infantry. I can only think that either, the buckle/locket is not contemporaneous with the belt, or that it is one of those regimental 'exceptions' so beloved of British units in order to be different.
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby RobD » 31 Aug 2017 16:05

Is the 94 a date? If so, is this a late date for this pattern of equipment?
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 31 Aug 2017 17:00

Frogsmile wrote:It is extremely unusual for RVC to use anything but snake buckles and they were usually the province of other line infantry. I can only think that either, the buckle/locket is not contemporaneous with the belt, or that it is one of those regimental 'exceptions' so beloved of British units in order to be different.


It is yes I totally agree Frogsmile

Its worth a note that the buff leather tongue behind the GS buckle has no indentation from a snake buckle clasp, as is so often the case that the snake buckle loop leaves a dent impressed on the leather from use.

Also the belt adjuster is brass as are the front brace keepers ?

bit of a puzzle also to myself ? I wonder if the 1st LRV took this belt and just never thought to alter it Frogsmile ?

Yes as we often keep finding out our Victorian ancestors keep us guessing don't they :?
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 31 Aug 2017 17:26

RobD wrote:Is the 94 a date? If so, is this a late date for this pattern of equipment?



Hello Rob

Good to here from you again

I did wonder that, but how strange that they would use this pattern in 1894 ?

But the Vols units did use old obsolete kit as we all know, but why this pattern in 1894 ?

Just seems to late for them to use this pattern belt then do you agree ?

I would understand an 1882 pattern still being used.
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 31 Aug 2017 19:51

AlexReece wrote:
Frogsmile wrote:It is extremely unusual for RVC to use anything but snake buckles and they were usually the province of other line infantry. I can only think that either, the buckle/locket is not contemporaneous with the belt, or that it is one of those regimental 'exceptions' so beloved of British units in order to be different.


It is yes I totally agree Frogsmile

Its worth a note that the buff leather tongue behind the GS buckle has no indentation from a snake buckle clasp, as is so often the case that the snake buckle loop leaves a dent impressed on the leather from use.

Also the belt adjuster is brass as are the front brace keepers ?

bit of a puzzle also to myself ? I wonder if the 1st LRV took this belt and just never thought to alter it Frogsmile ?

Yes as we often keep finding out our Victorian ancestors keep us guessing don't they :?


You make an excellent point regarding the absence of impression marks on the chape.

Does it have any loops or D rings on the lower edge? The only thing I could consider is whether or not it is a staff sergeant's pattern fitted for a sword.
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 31 Aug 2017 20:03

Hello Frogsmile

Chape yes that's the word I was looking for.

No It only holds the two front keepers and adjuster, no evidence of having any other rings or attachments Frogsmile.

RobD gave a valid point about the number 94, surely they would not have used this pattern in 1894 would they ?

But I guess could be possible as we often find out how pre patterns was still used years after it was issued.

Alex
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 31 Aug 2017 20:53

AlexReece wrote:Hello Frogsmile

Chape yes that's the word I was looking for.

No It only holds the two front keepers and adjuster, no evidence of having any other rings or attachments Frogsmile.

RobD gave a valid point about the number 94, surely they would not have used this pattern in 1894 would they ?

But I guess could be possible as we often find out how pre patterns was still used years after it was issued.

Alex


The date was always given as month and year. The 94 is more likely the last 2 numbers of the soldiers serial (as in regulars), or it might be a company serial number for unit accounting purposes (more likely for auxiliaries as manning turnover has always been high).

Officers had special, regimental lockets/clasps, and SNCO appointments sometimes emulated the same appearance with the universal/union locket.

Finally, we should not lose sight of the fact that few units had enough standard equipment to always turn out perfectly and uniformly clad, as per regulation, without one or two compromises being made.
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 31 Aug 2017 21:06

Thank you Frogsmile

I agree with that yes :)

I've seen many 1888 patterns and some 1882 but not to many originals of this pattern, but for only repos.

I shall try researching the number for that Regt, needle in haystack I know but ?

Alex
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby AlexReece » 05 Sep 2017 16:11

Update

Hello Fellow Members

After following Frogsmiles link he so kindly posted for me, I contacted the Leicestershire record office for more information or if I could find the owner 94 ?


Dear Alex
Thank you for your e-mail concerning your Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers belt. Strictly speaking the unit was only the 1st Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers from February 1880 until February 1883, when it became the 1st Volunteer Battalion, The Leicestershire Regiment. However, we know well that military equipment, particularly of auxiliary corps often remained in use for years beyond what we might assume from the regulations.
I regret that we do not have a roll of the volunteers after the mid-1860s and so cannot put a name to the regimental number.


Probably will never know the original owner but very good of them to contact me

Alex
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Re: ID Regt Mark 1871 Pattern Valise belt

Postby Frogsmile » 05 Sep 2017 16:28

AlexReece wrote:Update

Hello Fellow Members

After following Frogsmiles link he so kindly posted for me, I contacted the Leicestershire record office for more information or if I could find the owner 94 ?


Dear Alex
Thank you for your e-mail concerning your Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers belt. Strictly speaking the unit was only the 1st Leicestershire Rifle Volunteers from February 1880 until February 1883, when it became the 1st Volunteer Battalion, The Leicestershire Regiment. However, we know well that military equipment, particularly of auxiliary corps often remained in use for years beyond what we might assume from the regulations.
I regret that we do not have a roll of the volunteers after the mid-1860s and so cannot put a name to the regimental number.


Probably will never know the original owner but very good of them to contact me

Alex


That's interesting to know, Alex, and a pleasant surprise to see that you got a fairly swift reply. It would be intriguing to see if they have any photos of the unit in order to see if the union locket/clasp was usual for them or just an aberration.
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