Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 08 Aug 2017 22:14

Frogsmile wrote:Yes, it was attractive wasn't it, effort was invariably put into the appearance. As a general point it is also always best to keep at the back of your mind the British cultural obsession with social 'class' in distinctive big contrast to US attitudes where it was felt such attitudes had been ended at the revolution. In the British military it is not an exaggeration to say that the authorities really did differentiate between 'officers and their ladies', 'sergeants and their wives', and 'rank and file and their women'. Similarly, medals too, were divided by rank, regardless of the degree of gallantry shown, with the sole exception of the Victoria Cross. It is alleged that the Queen insisted on that equality between heroes, but I do not know if that is true, or wishful thinking.


So right. That's not the case over here in the US, but it's not foreign to me --- being so immersed in all of this British research. In fact, I think there is something to it when each rank acts on their responsibilities.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 09 Aug 2017 23:51

I'm wondering if I might be able to "bunny trail" my own thread just a little bit here . . . but thinking about all this has brought me to a bit of a question about Granville.

One of the memoirs of Inkerman that I've found has a the following mention of the Coldstreams:
The awful mortality amongst the officers of this distinguished regiment at Inkerman --- where no less than eight gallant men fell --- has been accounted for in the following manner:--- It appears a large portion of the Coldstream battalion had been on duty in the trenches during the night of the 4th inst. They were on the point of being relieved when the Russian attack commenced; and on receiving orders to join the division engaged, with commendable bravery they rushed to the point of danger. The officers did not even allow themselves time to exchange their undress blue frocks for the ordinary red uniform: and to this unfortunate circumstance, as well as their impetuous bravery in leading on their men, is attributable the disastrous results which followed.
Granville, being one of the eight officers to fall, was one of these men in "undress blue frocks".
What would he have looked like in that?

I've been doing some looking online, but everything turning up as a result dates from the late 18th century or the early 20th century. I can't seem to get anything to come up that shows something remotely near the Crimea.

Thanks!
Sarah
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Aug 2017 10:52

BingandNelsonFan wrote:I'm wondering if I might be able to "bunny trail" my own thread just a little bit here . . . but thinking about all this has brought me to a bit of a question about Granville.

One of the memoirs of Inkerman that I've found has a the following mention of the Coldstreams:
The awful mortality amongst the officers of this distinguished regiment at Inkerman --- where no less than eight gallant men fell --- has been accounted for in the following manner:--- It appears a large portion of the Coldstream battalion had been on duty in the trenches during the night of the 4th inst. They were on the point of being relieved when the Russian attack commenced; and on receiving orders to join the division engaged, with commendable bravery they rushed to the point of danger. The officers did not even allow themselves time to exchange their undress blue frocks for the ordinary red uniform: and to this unfortunate circumstance, as well as their impetuous bravery in leading on their men, is attributable the disastrous results which followed.
Granville, being one of the eight officers to fall, was one of these men in "undress blue frocks".
What would he have looked like in that?

I've been doing some looking online, but everything turning up as a result dates from the late 18th century or the early 20th century. I can't seem to get anything to come up that shows something remotely near the Crimea.

Thanks!
Sarah


If you go to the following thread and scroll down to my post at 1440 (time) you will see in the group image a picture of a Grenadier Guards officer wearing the blue frock(coat) and an Albert bonnet: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=10035&p=50268#p50268

A style that for a time was worn by most regiments it is today still worn only by HM Guards regiments and you can see images of the two princes, William and Harry wearing it at various formal occasions. It has become quite iconic. The uppermost of the enclosed images shows a Fenton picture of a Guards officer in the Crimea where the actual frock coat of the time and you can see the effects of campaigning upon it.
Attachments
Fenton228.jpeg
Fenton228.jpeg (143.32 KiB) Viewed 24 times
1stfoot1845.jpg
1stfoot1845.jpg (53.66 KiB) Viewed 24 times
ed37a70ff82411bea4ec435e0497b847--frock-coat-british-army.jpg
ed37a70ff82411bea4ec435e0497b847--frock-coat-british-army.jpg (44.19 KiB) Viewed 24 times
c0ef770aabe802daa3367111976fdd48--crimean-war-scottish-dress.jpg
c0ef770aabe802daa3367111976fdd48--crimean-war-scottish-dress.jpg (13.27 KiB) Viewed 24 times
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 10 Aug 2017 16:05

Hi, Frogsmile!

Thanks so much! I was running across the pictures showing Grenadiers in that uniform and wasn't sure if they would be the same. I'm assuming that the hat changed by regiment?

So, now I'd like to ask your opinion on something. The memoir that I got says that the Coldstream officers went onto the field at Inkerman in these undress blues. The portrait of the Coldstreams in action (in the same post you linked to above) shows them all in the traditional red coats and Bearskins. What do you think is more to the truth here? The reason I ask is that Granville's coat (in which he was killed) was saved by the family and displayed for years. I'd like to have someone try to look for it, but it would be easier to be able to tell them what to look for.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Aug 2017 18:09

BingandNelsonFan wrote:Hi, Frogsmile!

Thanks so much! I was running across the pictures showing Grenadiers in that uniform and wasn't sure if they would be the same. I'm assuming that the hat changed by regiment?

So, now I'd like to ask your opinion on something. The memoir that I got says that the Coldstream officers went onto the field at Inkerman in these undress blues. The portrait of the Coldstreams in action (in the same post you linked to above) shows them all in the traditional red coats and Bearskins. What do you think is more to the truth here? The reason I ask is that Granville's coat (in which he was killed) was saved by the family and displayed for years. I'd like to have someone try to look for it, but it would be easier to be able to tell them what to look for.


Yes, the caps and their badges and in the case of the undress Albert Bonnet (unique to the Guards), the piping was different, and white in the case of the Coldstream.

As regards your query on dress colour, etc. I think you are confusing between Alma, where scarlet was worn in the assault, and Inkerman (later battle), where Granville died. At Inkerman the men were in greatcoats and mostly undress caps and the officers in their dark blue frock coats. I am unsure about whether some men wore bearskins, but I suspect that they were not worn in this makeshift battle that started by surprise and was fought in cold weather with fog and poor visibility as well as darkness in part.

It seems almost certain therefore that Granville was dressed very similarly to the Guards officer in the Fenton picture I posted above when he died.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 10 Aug 2017 19:16

Okay, I am probably confused there. That's a big help to have the real photo (which gent is actually an acquaintance of Granville and family) as well as the color illustration. Would be cool if his jacket could turn up, although I wouldn't be totally surprised if it turns out that Granville's brother was actually buried with it. I'll have to see about having someone look around the house for it.
Thanks!
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 11 Aug 2017 00:40

BingandNelsonFan wrote:Okay, I am probably confused there. That's a big help to have the real photo (which gent is actually an acquaintance of Granville and family) as well as the color illustration. Would be cool if his jacket could turn up, although I wouldn't be totally surprised if it turns out that Granville's brother was actually buried with it. I'll have to see about having someone look around the house for it.
Thanks!


I'm glad to help Sarah. The early photo of a Guards officer in frock coat above was taken by the famous war photographer, Fenton, and I neither, know the officer's name, nor have seen the photo before. I just realised for the first time that the photo must have been the 'model' that inspired the artist of the coloured image immediately below it. The positioning of the hands, sword and cap with a cover are clearly the same.
Last edited by Frogsmile on 11 Aug 2017 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby crimea1854 » 11 Aug 2017 14:22

The first photograph is of Captain Verschoyle, Grenadier Guards.

Fenton has two images of officers from the Coldstream Guards; Col. Goodlake & Captain Heneage.

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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 11 Aug 2017 17:37

crimea1854 wrote:The first photograph is of Captain Verschoyle, Grenadier Guards.

Fenton has two images of officers from the Coldstream Guards; Col. Goodlake & Captain Heneage.

Martin


Thank you, Martin, that's very interesting to learn. Verschoyle sounds quite Continental and not at all British. I was quite fascinated to see how his image was used to inspire the artist's painting.

In what form of dress were Goodlake and Heneage?
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby crimea1854 » 11 Aug 2017 20:05

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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 12 Aug 2017 09:50

crimea1854 wrote:Frogsmile link to images : http://www.loc.gov/pictures/search/?q=coldstream%20guards&co=ftncnw

Martin


Thank you Martin, I'm sure that Sarah will find it interesting and useful that both Goodlake and Heneage are in undress frock coats too. There should also be larger images available somewhere as I know that the whole series is online in various sites.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby mconrad » 12 Aug 2017 12:42

Frogsmile wrote:
crimea1854 wrote:The first photograph is of Captain Verschoyle, Grenadier Guards.

Fenton has two images of officers from the Coldstream Guards; Col. Goodlake & Captain Heneage.

Martin


Thank you, Martin, that's very interesting to learn. Verschoyle sounds quite Continental and not at all British. I was quite fascinated to see how his image was used to inspire the artist's painting.

In what form of dress were Goodlake and Heneage?


Is the illustration truly a copy of the photo? The illustration is dated 1845, the photo is of course 1855-56. I have seen this positioning of hands and sword tucked under the arm many times.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 12 Aug 2017 13:27

Hi, Frogsmile and Martin!

Great stuff, and I do appreciate the info that those two Coldstreams are wearing the undress. Both Verschoyle and Heneage were acquaintances of Granville, but Goodlake . . . I don't know. Sure wish Granville had been around one day when Fenton was at work. :)

I will have a look around for higher-res versions of those two pics. It still surprises me that Fenton's pictures haven't been cataloged on a site in a serious way.

Thanks!
Sarah
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby Frogsmile » 12 Aug 2017 14:14

mconrad wrote:
Frogsmile wrote:
crimea1854 wrote:The first photograph is of Captain Verschoyle, Grenadier Guards.

Fenton has two images of officers from the Coldstream Guards; Col. Goodlake & Captain Heneage.

Martin


Thank you, Martin, that's very interesting to learn. Verschoyle sounds quite Continental and not at all British. I was quite fascinated to see how his image was used to inspire the artist's painting.

In what form of dress were Goodlake and Heneage?


Is the illustration truly a copy of the photo? The illustration is dated 1845, the photo is of course 1855-56. I have seen this positioning of hands and sword tucked under the arm many times.


I would happily wager that it is. The painting purports to depict the uniform of 1845, not state that it was painted then, and the frock coat had not changed by 1854. If you look at the exact positioning of hands and fingers and the emerging sword hilt and knot, I believe that they are too exactly similar to be a coincidence.
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Re: Crimean War Coldstream Guard: What Medals?

Postby BingandNelsonFan » 12 Aug 2017 14:49

These are three more Fenton pictures that appear to be similar coats, am I right? Names and regiments of the officers are listed in the file name.
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Captain Burnaby Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg
Captain Burnaby Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg (56.52 KiB) Viewed 9 times
Captain Bathurst Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg
Captain Bathurst Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg (90.17 KiB) Viewed 9 times
Capt Lord Balgonie Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg
Capt Lord Balgonie Grenadier Guards by Roger Fenton.jpg (74.16 KiB) Viewed 9 times
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