2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

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2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 10 Mar 2017 04:58

Hello once again forum members. I have been fortunate enough to acquire my first British Victorian Boer War KD Frock to add to my collection, and I thought I'd share it with the forum. The KD Frock is stamped to the 2nd Manchester Regiment, but a real bonus is that it comes with it's original trousers also stamped to the 2nd Manchester Reg. The KD Frock itself is in really good condition and only has 1 missing collar tab. It has a marksmanship? badge and 2 chevrons indicating the rank of Corporal? The trousers are also in pretty good condition. I'm not an expert on trousers, or any of this at all, actually, so I can't really comment on the trousers, other than they are in pretty good condition. These are pictures from the seller by the way.

I've been reading on KD Frocks lately and I have been getting some mixed results. I have a few questions. I was wondering if the KD Frocks were:

1. used in battle throughout the entire war
2. used in battle early war and then the Khaki Serge replaced it and then KD was only used for guarding blockhouses, etc or
3. used only in block houses and garrisons, and minor small scale battles, while the khaki serge was used in battles?

I've been doing some reading as I understand it the the 2nd Manchesters arrived in Natal in April 1900 for reinforcements and took part in the reliefs of Ladysmith, Kimberley and Mafeking. After the fall of Bloemfontein and Pretoria the 2nd Manchesters helped to hunt down remaining Boer commandos and burnt properties. But that's just from what I read. Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for reading,

-Jamie
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 10 Mar 2017 05:02

Additional images: trousers and collars.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Mar 2017 10:26

You have done well to find an authentic suit of British KD, as it has been much reproduced, but what you have shown appears genuine. The stamping has been done as per regulation and you even have the regimental number of the soldier. He was a qualified marksman and so would have received a penny extra per day for as long as his qualification remained current. Classification shoots took place annually. He is not a corporal, but has two so-called good conduct badges on his cuff. From memory the first one was for 3-years of unblemished service and then I think it was 2-years for each subsequent badge (stripe), plus there was an aggregate acceleration once 12-years or so were served. Forum member Grumpy has the detail but to save him posting again you could perhaps do a search on 'good conduct' in the forum. The collar badge is correct for the Manchesters, but there would have been a pair. I will leave it to others to comment on the battalion's activities. They were not generally considered a 'fashionable' regiment, but provided good and steady service.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby jf42 » 10 Mar 2017 11:09

Our member James Holt is the men to tell you about the rich variety of khaki frocks worn. If you do a search you will find extensive discussion on the forum.

With regard to your question re. KD and serge, the short answer is that the KD clothing was soon found to be not hard wearing enough for the field conditions encountered in South Africa. Nor was it adequate to the cold and damper conditions found on the veld.

In fact, the QM dept had been building up stocks of khaki serge before fighting broke out in South Africa. Nonetheless, stocks of KD remained and the lighter fabric was no doubt welcome in the hottest months of the South African summer.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 10 Mar 2017 15:27

Would it be possible to some how search up the soldier using the regimental number of the soldier? I don't really understand the stamping, what would be his number? Obviously 2MAN is 2nd Manchester, but then is the rest of it his regimental number? Thanks once again for your help, everyone.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby AlexReece » 10 Mar 2017 16:35

VictorianEra wrote:Would it be possible to some how search up the soldier using the regimental number of the soldier? I don't really understand the stamping, what would be his number? Obviously 2MAN is 2nd Manchester, but then is the rest of it his regimental number? Thanks once again for your help, everyone.


Excellent Frock Jamie :wink:

I think 3164 is his number & 1 98 would be Jan 1898 ?

Could be wrong and I'm sure more experienced members will put me right.

Alex
'And Who Do You Think Is Coming To Wipe Out Your Little Command....The Grenadier Guards'
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby grumpy » 10 Mar 2017 16:40

2817 joined on 1st March 1890
3301 joined on 20th August 1891

Numbers were issued sequentially. His number fits two Good Conduct badges .......... 2 years, 6 years, next at 12 not yet eligible.

I think the frock may well be "India Pattern" and perhaps someone can have a look to see if 2 Man went to SA from India.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Mar 2017 16:40

VictorianEra wrote:Would it be possible to some how search up the soldier using the regimental number of the soldier? I don't really understand the stamping, what would be his number? Obviously 2MAN is 2nd Manchester, but then is the rest of it his regimental number? Thanks once again for your help, everyone.


The stamp is configured; unit, regimental number, date of issue (month-year). You can research Army numbers here: http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby grumpy » 10 Mar 2017 16:47

From Wiki ...............

The 2nd Battalion was based in India from 1882 to 1897 and saw action on the North-West Frontier before departing for Aden.

Thus, I believe the owner was either: never in South Africa or

possibly one of a draft from 2nd to 1st battalion ........... such drafts were not unusual, especially in time of war.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Mar 2017 16:49

grumpy wrote:2817 joined on 1st March 1890
3301 joined on 20th August 1891

Numbers were issued sequentially. His number fits two Good Conduct badges .......... 2 years, 6 years, next at 12 not yet eligible.

I think the frock may well be "India Pattern" and perhaps someone can have a look to see if 2 Man went to SA from India.


2nd Manchesters were stationed in Manchester 1898 and 1899. 1st Manchesters were in Gibraltar: http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/CGSC/CARL/n ... 899AAB.pdf
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby grumpy » 10 Mar 2017 17:12

Extraordinary ........ wherever I look I get conflicting web advice on the movements and stations of the regular battalions 1st and 2nd up to and including 1900.

I don't know of a central "stations" source for all regiments since the demise of the superb "Regiments" web offering.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 10 Mar 2017 17:17

Thanks everyone! :)

I am messaging the man who runs the research website you suggested, Frogsmile. We are in talks as we speak and I am paying for further research on a soldier, we may have a lead. 3164 Pte Aaron Burrows, 1st Battalion, spent most of his time with the second battalion and then transferred to first battalion. I'll keep this thread updated on further updates, possibly more to come today.
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Mar 2017 17:57

grumpy wrote:Extraordinary ........ wherever I look I get conflicting web advice on the movements and stations of the regular battalions 1st and 2nd up to and including 1900.

I don't know of a central "stations" source for all regiments since the demise of the superb "Regiments" web offering.


Unfortunately the 'Regiments' site, excellent in concept as it was and still a great resource despite being archived and no longer developed, was never fully evolved and it contains quite a lot (but not all) errors vis-a-vis locations, largely because primary sources had not been digitally scanned at the time. The CGSC Nafziger resource has now done this, but only as a year by year process. The Edinburgh Gazette has done similar scanning, albeit more limited in scope.
All of these can be found via the indispensable FIBIS FIBIwiki page on the British Army that I commend to anyone undertaking research: http://wiki.fibis.org/w/British_Army#Se ... on_records
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby grumpy » 10 Mar 2017 22:45

many thanks!
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Re: 2nd Manchester Regiment Khaki Drill Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Mar 2017 23:47

VictorianEra wrote:Thanks everyone! :)

I am messaging the man who runs the research website you suggested, Frogsmile. We are in talks as we speak and I am paying for further research on a soldier, we may have a lead. 3164 Pte Aaron Burrows, 1st Battalion, spent most of his time with the second battalion and then transferred to first battalion. I'll keep this thread updated on further updates, possibly more to come today.


Just so that you understand different meanings in terminology, to 'transfer' means to join a different regiment/corps altogether. A man is 'posted' between battalions of the same regiment.
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