Rifle stamp ID

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Rifle stamp ID

Postby Darrow » 01 Feb 2017 22:52

Hi,
With reference to the picture below, can anyone identify the stamp. It's on a Lee Metford carbine, apart from the BSA logo there are no other significant marks. Many thanks in advance.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby RobD » 02 Feb 2017 00:55

Can I suggest you post this also on the Lee Enfield forum, where there is considerable expertise:
http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Darrow » 02 Feb 2017 05:37

Thanks Rob,
I'll give it a go!
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby ED, in Los Angeles » 11 Feb 2017 23:53

It is "supposed" to be the cancellation mark of two british broad arrows, point to point, signifying that the rifle is ready for sale as surplus. See image below.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... fc8e58ceo0


What it is, is THREE strikes of an alternative cancellation mark that looks like an airplane propeller, to be interpreted as two nose to nose broad arrows. See last few markings on CANADIAN bayonets from link below.

http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/brit_bayo.html

This "propeller" cancellation mark may not necessarily be only Canadian. Nor may it be Canadian at all. I question the accuracy of the Canadian provenance. I do believe I have some Enfields with this mark and they are not on a Canadian long arm.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Darrow » 12 Feb 2017 21:44

Hi Ed,
Thanks for your reply, it's greatly appreciated. But do you have any thoughts ref the absence of any other military markings, apart from the Broad Arrow just to the left of the centre of the stamps in question. Because I would have thought that in order for it to have been taken out of service, it must first have all been in service. Therefore would there not have been other stamps, possibly regimental or inspection?
Incidently, there seems to be another odd stamp close to the Broad Arrow stamp, any thoughts on that?
Regs.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Will Mathieson » 16 Feb 2017 06:02

I don't see a regulation broad arrow in this photo. This rifle may well be a civilian verion which explains the lack of govt markings.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby englishman_ca » 21 Feb 2017 01:02

I think that I know as to what this carbine is.

Do you have access to this arm?

Could we see the other insignificant markings, especially those on the left and right side of the breech area?
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Darrow » 24 Feb 2017 07:39

Hi,

Here are pictures of the other marks on this carbine, I look forward to your reply!

Regs
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Feb 2017 10:26

it is South African military. The "U" with a broad arrow inside it represents Union of South Africa.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby RobD » 24 Feb 2017 18:20

Yes, it certainly spent some time in South Africa: pre-1910, Cape Govt marks on buttstock [and inverted marks, indicating, I assume, sold out of service though I haven't see this arrangement before]; post-1910 the U with a broad arrow of the Union of South Africa.
Out of interest, are there any other marks associated with Cape ownership, namely a crowned 3, or the initials K.T.?
The armoury re-barreling with a BSA commercial barrel is often seen on South African military Long Lees, and seems to date from the Great War, though I haven't seen it done to a carbine before.

One of the forummers, Terrylee, is the world expert on British arms in South Africa; if you PM him, he may know a lot more about this carbine. Do send any more pictures, including of the whole carbine.

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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby timothylrose » 24 Feb 2017 19:18

Darrow - is is a deactivated one from the batch of "carbines" that came out of SA to the UK about 5 years or so back - they were all converted rifles, cut down to the 21 inch carbine barrel lengths, marked up to Union of South Africa but still retaining the remains of the long range volley sights and had no charger loading conversions on the bridge. They were a bit of a mystery - mine has butt markings for D and C and the consensus at the time was that they were probably converted for native police use - D = District and C= Constable. Would be nice to have some firmed up provenance - atb Tim
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby Will Mathieson » 24 Feb 2017 20:03

I don't see it in your photos but DC in a diamond shape is the ownership mark for Canada (Dominion of Canada).
Canada did sell off much of their arms to foreign countries.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby terrylee » 25 Feb 2017 08:50

Does the carbine look similar to this, except without a magazine? If so, it is probably a South African Cadet Carbine. These were converted from Long Lees shortly following the Second World War. Whether it has a safety catch or not would depend upon conversion from a Lee Metford or Lee Enfield.

These cadet carbines were officially deactivated during the 1960s and are still occasionally found on flea markets. This particular example obviously "escaped" before deactivation. I (incorrectly) added the magazine.
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Re: Rifle stamp ID

Postby timothylrose » 25 Feb 2017 18:18

Thanks for that Terry - cleared up what my baby is after years of trying- it came out in a batch of them from SA a few years back - I got mine cheap as the guy I bought it from had it come in as part of a deal with a Bren and some other bits and just wanted shot of it Mine retains the safety on the bolt and has been converted from a LE 1 dated Enfield 1901 - butt marked D8 C1836 - it came with a magazine fitted too. It will do as a stand in for a cavalry carbine but I now know what it's history is - was going to grind the bolt down but will leave it like it is now I know - atb Tim
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