Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2017 18:12

A suggestion for your next acquisition is an officers blue frock for the Highland Light Infantry (HLI). This was most unusual in that the back had several (from memory 4 or 5) vertical pleats/folds running down the centre of the back. I know of no other regiment that wore that style.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Jocktamson » 21 Jan 2017 18:23

SIr James Clerk Rattray received the Order of the Bath in 1897, and was appointed Colonel of the Cameronians in 1899. and to the best of my knowledge was still Colonel until at least 1904.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 18:24

Frogsmile wrote:A suggestion for your next acquisition is an officers blue frock for the Highland Light Infantry (HLI). This was most unusual in that the back had several (from memory 4 or 5) vertical pleats/folds running down the centre of the back. I know of no other regiment that wore that style.


Do you happen to have a picture of this type of Frock, or an old photograph of an officer wearing one? I would like very much to look out for one to add to my collection. I thought the HLI just had a patrol frock similar to the other Scottish infantry regiments, I thought the blue frock came in a little later, around WW1. A few months ago I did see a blue patrol frock to the HLI, but it was WW1 vintage and I just swiftly went passed it, it was already sold, and I don't have much of a memory of it. The seller removed it soon after, as it was already sold. I would love to see a picture of this type of frock, my long term goal for my collection is to have a frock for most of the Scottish Regiments, this may be extremely hard to do, but I already have two so perhaps more may be added in the near future, perhaps a HLI one, if fate allows.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 18:29

Jocktamson wrote:SIr James Clerk Rattray received the Order of the Bath in 1897, and was appointed Colonel of the Cameronians in 1899. and to the best of my knowledge was still Colonel until at least 1904.


Oh my, what a pleasant surprise, this would match the owner of this Frock, not confirmed, but thank you for sharing this very helpful lead. Rank, award, regiment, and conflict would all match with this frock.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Jocktamson » 21 Jan 2017 18:36

Frogsmile wrote:A suggestion for your next acquisition is an officers blue frock for the Highland Light Infantry (HLI). This was most unusual in that the back had several (from memory 4 or 5) vertical pleats/folds running down the centre of the back. I know of no other regiment that wore that style.


Correct Frogsmile... they wore 4 pleats down the back of the KD Tunic. heres a photo of my Boer War KD

Image

The supposed reason for the 4 pleats is that a tailor misread the instructions for a box pleat 4 inches wide to accommodate the spine pad in hot weather, but the regiment liked the outcome and kept the 4 box pleats.
Last edited by Jocktamson on 21 Jan 2017 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 18:44

Do you happen to know if Colonel Sir James Clerk Rattray received any other rewards than the CB and the South African Medal, because it may not fit if he had more awards during the Boer War, but if just had the CB and QSA Medal then it may be our man. Also, Jocktamson, very nice KD frock, I must say.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Jocktamson » 21 Jan 2017 18:54

VictorianEra wrote:Do you happen to know if Colonel Sir James Clerk Rattray received any other rewards than the CB and the South African Medal, because it may not fit if he had more awards during the Boer War, but if just had the CB and QSA Medal then it may be our man. Also, Jocktamson, very nice KD frock, I must say.


just checked...I doubt it could be him... he served in Crimea and in the relief and defence of Lucknow

Sir James Rattray served with the 90th Light Infantry in the Crimea and was at the siiege and fall of Sevastopol, was severely wounded, awarded Medal,Clasp, and Turkish Medal). Served also during the Indian campaign of 1857-58, and was with Havelocks Column at the relief and defence of Lucknow also twice mentioned in despatches.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 19:00

Indeed, I do not think that this is our man, however, I appreciate your insight on this topic. Though, where did you come across this name, Jocktamson?
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2017 19:03

Jocktamson wrote:SIr James Clerk Rattray received the Order of the Bath in 1897, and was appointed Colonel of the Cameronians in 1899. and to the best of my knowledge was still Colonel until at least 1904.


Way too old Jock. He was a Lieutenant General in 1881 and in any case was awarded the more senior KCB in 1897, not the CB.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2017 19:06

Jocktamson wrote:
Frogsmile wrote:A suggestion for your next acquisition is an officers blue frock for the Highland Light Infantry (HLI). This was most unusual in that the back had several (from memory 4 or 5) vertical pleats/folds running down the centre of the back. I know of no other regiment that wore that style.


Correct Frogsmile... they wore 4 pleats down the back of the KD Tunic. heres a photo of my Boer War KD

Image

The supposed reason for the 4 pleats is that a tailor misread the instructions for a box pleat 4 inches wide to accommodate the spine pad in hot weather, but the regiment liked the outcome and kept the 4 box pleats.


Yes, now that you mention it I think that I can recall reading that in the excellent little booklet on HLI dress that was published on amalgamation with RSF in 1959.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2017 19:14

VictorianEra wrote:
Frogsmile wrote:A suggestion for your next acquisition is an officers blue frock for the Highland Light Infantry (HLI). This was most unusual in that the back had several (from memory 4 or 5) vertical pleats/folds running down the centre of the back. I know of no other regiment that wore that style.


Do you happen to have a picture of this type of Frock, or an old photograph of an officer wearing one? I would like very much to look out for one to add to my collection. I thought the HLI just had a patrol frock similar to the other Scottish infantry regiments, I thought the blue frock came in a little later, around WW1. A few months ago I did see a blue patrol frock to the HLI, but it was WW1 vintage and I just swiftly went passed it, it was already sold, and I don't have much of a memory of it. The seller removed it soon after, as it was already sold. I would love to see a picture of this type of frock, my long term goal for my collection is to have a frock for most of the Scottish Regiments, this may be extremely hard to do, but I already have two so perhaps more may be added in the near future, perhaps a HLI one, if fate allows.


From the front the HLI blue frock looks the same as that worn by other Scottish regiments, with cutaway front, patch chest pockets with (I think) box pleats and scalloped flaps and lower patch pockets with plain flaps. The difference is only seen at the rear, with its four vertical pleats.

The frock continued to be worn by the merged regiment, the RHF after 1959, and might also have been adopted by its twin, Canadian regiment the RHF of Canada, which still exists as a reserve unit.
Last edited by Frogsmile on 21 Jan 2017 19:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 19:29

The HLI patrol frock would be quite a rare one, I would imagine, but then again, most of these frocks are pretty rare, however surprisingly, I personally have seen more Scottish Regiment other ranks examples than Officer examples for sale so far. I have seen my SNCO Argyll Frock, 3 OR Highland Yellow Frocks (sold previously, 1 didn't sell, and I inquired on the item, the seller didn't get back to me) 2 Scottish Rifles OR Frock (both of which are still for sale, I may get one, don't know yet) and this Scottish Rifles Frock has been the only Scottish Regiment Officer Frock (Victorian Period) I have seen for sale so far, I am constantly on the look, but the Officer ones, in my experience have so far come up less, which is odd because you would think OR examples would be far more rare, and perhaps in the case of these frocks they still are, but I personally have seen more OR than Officer examples. I would like very much to obtain a HLI version of this Frock with it's rear four pleats. I am learning a lot of information from these topics and these frocks, these patrol frocks can definitely sometimes have some mysteries (as initially seen in my SNCO A&SH Frock) which is probably because there is some missing information with these frocks, and there is not enough light shined upon them so to speak. Hopefully in the near future I will get more examples, Officer and OR alike, to different Scottish regiments, as they are very nice uniforms. Hopefully I will post more frocks in the future on this forum, it is a lot of fun to learn new things about them and to research them.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Frogsmile » 21 Jan 2017 19:59

I don't think it is that rare for the reasons I tried to explain to you in my last post.

Be careful not to confuse ORs frocks with ORs doublets. The (often) yellow facings and cut away fronts can make them very similar at first look, but the doublet is made of finer quality cloth rather than serge and has the more elaborate style of 'Inverness' lower pockets.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby VictorianEra » 21 Jan 2017 20:02

Yes, OR Yellow Highland Frocks would look like my Argyll and Sutherland SNCO Frock, only white piping where they is gold embroidery on mine, red instead of yellow on the cuffs, but yellow still on the collars. That would be blue in the case of the Royal Regiments. And yes, re-reading your previous post, Frogsmile I realize that they may not be "pretty rare" as I previously stated, and I will keep my eye out for an example of the HLI Frock.
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Re: Interesting Boer War Cameronians Officer's Patrol Frock

Postby Jocktamson » 21 Jan 2017 20:11

VictorianEra wrote:Indeed, I do not think that this is our man, however, I appreciate your insight on this topic. Though, where did you come across this name, Jocktamson?


I collect Scotttish Rifles and 26th mainly, so have a few reference books and histories.
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