Sleeve Insignia

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Sleeve Insignia

Postby rclpillinger » 07 Dec 2017 17:59

I have just collected two more of my Grandfather's photograph albums from the Horsepower Museum so that I can have them restored, as they are beginning to fall to bits a bit.

In one of them, covering the home tour of 1884 to 1899 there is a wonderful picture of the Sergeants, of whom he is one. It was taken at Canterbury between 1897 and 1899. I do not understand the sleeve insignia. Could someone please help. He was by this stage RQMS. Grandpa is seated at the front, second from the right, looking supremely confident.

Richard
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Staff Sergeants 1.JPG
Tenth (PWO) Royal Hussars
Staff Sergeants 1.JPG (105.56 KiB) Viewed 240 times
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby colsjt65 » 07 Dec 2017 20:11

It looks like the Prince of Wales feathers badge, which makes sense, being that the 10th were the Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales's Own).
150px-10th_Royal_Hussars_Badge.jpg
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The eight pointed star 'Flower' above it is for Regimental Quartermaster.
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby rclpillinger » 07 Dec 2017 20:39

Yes, colsjt65, I have seen the P o W Feathers, but there seems to be quite a lot of braiding going on beneath and above the feathers, and this is what I am curious about. It may just be a visual aberration but perhaps you can help explain what is going on?

Richard
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby t100 » 08 Dec 2017 13:11

This looks to me like the pattern of rank chevron used by four-bar ranks in the Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards on patrol jackets, which used braid rather than lace for each chevron. So basically this is the standard star over four chevrons for a RQMS, but in braid, and with the addition of the regiment's arm badge as discussed above.

Why this would be used by a 10th Hussars man I do not know, but I'm pretty sure that's what we're looking at.

T
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby crimea1854 » 08 Dec 2017 14:39

Could I postulate that they might be long service chevrons, look at the figure on the extreme left, second row in, where there appears to be a similar arrangement, all be it with more stripes.

Martin
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby grumpy » 08 Dec 2017 15:30

crimea1854 wrote:Could I postulate that they might be long service chevrons, look at the figure on the extreme left, second row in, where there appears to be a similar arrangement, all be it with more stripes.

Martin


These are "The SNCOs and WOs"
The RQMS ident is correct, although in that era he was usually known as the QMS. If there was also a QMS running the orderly room [without star] he was usually known as the OR QMS, and the junior of the two. In the course of time, one or the other would be likely to become the QM.

The left flank man is, I think, a farrier serjeant-major, as he appears to have a badge above all the others which is probably a crown.

Also present, inter alia, the serjeant-major and the trumpet-major.
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby t100 » 08 Dec 2017 17:17

Following on from my post above, you can see an example of this type of braid chevron here on 1st Life Guards: http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/veterinary-demonstration-1st-life-guards-1896-farrier-news-photo/463978047?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#veterinary-demonstration-1st-life-guards-1896-farrier-wallace-of-the-picture-id463978047 They look unusual but they are four-bar rank chevrons.

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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby rclpillinger » 10 Dec 2017 17:23

Gentlemen, that all makes sense. I have a huge silver tray presented to my Grandfather inscribed

Presented to R. Pillinger O. R. C. by Captain The Hon. J. Bing, March 1897 (I bet the inscriber didn't get paid for the job because of such a fundamental spelling error!)

He would, by this time have served 22 years with the regiment, and so presumably would have qualified for several LSGC stripes, and would he have still have been the Orderly Room Corporal?

This just leaves what appears to me the two close stripes running up the sleeve from the chevrons. Presumably this must just be a trick of the light.

Richard
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Re: Sleeve Insignia

Postby Frogsmile » 10 Dec 2017 22:19

rclpillinger wrote:Gentlemen, that all makes sense. I have a huge silver tray presented to my Grandfather inscribed

Presented to R. Pillinger O. R. C. by Captain The Hon. J. Bing, March 1897 (I bet the inscriber didn't get paid for the job because of such a fundamental spelling error!)

He would, by this time have served 22 years with the regiment, and so presumably would have qualified for several LSGC stripes, and would he have still have been the Orderly Room Corporal?

This just leaves what appears to me the two close stripes running up the sleeve from the chevrons. Presumably this must just be a trick of the light.

Richard


Ranks above Lance Corporal did not generally wear good conduct badges (stripes), although until 1881 Corporals were also permitted to wear them. The abbreviation ORC was a reference to the generic term Orderly Room Clerk, which was used by some regiments as an alternative to ORQMS. As an HQ staff sergeant of the senior class he was entitled to a First Class tunic and undress garments, such as e.g. stable jackets, were generally enhanced with extra gold braid to mark seniority over the more junior RHQ staff sergeants. The blue patrol jacket that he wears in your photo (also known for a time in the cavalry as a ‘blue jumper’), was much more plain. Having looked at your photo through a magnifier, it is clear that all the braid that you see is merely 4-strands forming the elongated chevrons part of his rank badge (the star above forming the other part), as described by T.100 above.
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