Officers on horseback

For all discussions relating to the Egyptian and Sudanese campaigns fought between 1882 and 1898.

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Josh&Historyland » 05 Feb 2015 23:34

Was there a part of the drill that prescribed officers commanding, to take post before the colours when the regiment was advancing, and retire behind them the same distance when engaging the enemy?

Josh.
Adventure's In Historyland, Keeping History Real. http://adventuresinhistoryland.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Josh&Historyland
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 02 Mar 2013 14:11

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby rd72 » 06 Feb 2015 03:20

Hi Josh,

Not exhaustive but perhaps exemplary, from the '77 FE&E:

Image

Image

Image

The Bn in Line
Image

The Bn in Column
Image

Perhaps important to caveat these with, the "theoretical" way a battalion was to fight by this time was broken down into the three "lines", The Firing Line, the Supports and the Reserve... In these cases, the Colonel (and Colours) were back with the Reserve (ish)....

Image
Cheers,
Rob
User avatar
rd72
Senior Member
 
Posts: 483
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 17:44

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Atheling » 06 Feb 2015 09:12

Rob,

When was this published if you don't mind me asking? I'm currently researching the NWF and the Sudan (ie reading other folks research!) and i was wondering if it was releveat?

Darrell.
Atheling
Participating Member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 16:43

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Josh&Historyland » 06 Feb 2015 13:35

Atheling wrote:Rob,

When was this published if you don't mind me asking? I'm currently researching the NWF and the Sudan (ie reading other folks research!) and i was wondering if it was releveat?

Darrell.


1877?

mike snook wrote:It is inconceivable that Sir George Cathcart would not have been mounted! That's the point really.

The 'code' is very important in all this. It was considered that to dismount was to show fear and a bad example which might unsettle the men....doubly and trebly so at times of crisis, such as that pertaining on 5 Nov 1854.

As ever

M


Inconceivable indeed! (A classical example would be the Roman officer in command of the right flank cavalry at Cannae, wounded by a slingshot he dismounted, causing his men to think he had given the order to dismount. Disaster ensued)

Josh.
Adventure's In Historyland, Keeping History Real. http://adventuresinhistoryland.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Josh&Historyland
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 02 Mar 2013 14:11

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Atheling » 06 Feb 2015 13:54

Josh&Historyland wrote:
Atheling wrote:Rob,

When was this published if you don't mind me asking? I'm currently researching the NWF and the Sudan (ie reading other folks research!) and i was wondering if it was releveat?

Darrell.


1877?

Many thanks 8) .

Darrell.
Atheling
Participating Member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 16:43

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby mike snook » 06 Feb 2015 21:29

Darrell

It's absolutely relevant for your purposes. There was a new edition in 1885 but too late to be adopted for anything to do with the Sudan. Covers AZW and Egypt as well obviously.

As ever

Mike
Dr Mike Snook MBE psc
User avatar
mike snook
Honorary Academic Advisor
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: 19 Jun 2008 09:35

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby rd72 » 06 Feb 2015 22:00

Although you have your answer, Darrell, it would be rude of me not to respond to the question you asked of me.

"1877" and "Yes"...... :)

The Forum is so full of members who are experts in "snap shooting" that sometimes, it is hard to get a post up in a timely fashion... Speaks to the "passion", I might suppose.....

Incidentally, the symbol for the Colonel in the diagrams is the rectangle with the bar inside and the cross at the "top".... Curiously missing from the "battalion in line" sketch....
Cheers,
Rob
User avatar
rd72
Senior Member
 
Posts: 483
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 17:44

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Atheling » 06 Feb 2015 22:19

mike snook wrote:Darrell

It's absolutely relevant for your purposes. There was a new edition in 1885 but too late to be adopted for anything to do with the Sudan. Covers AZW and Egypt as well obviously.


Thanks yet again- this will be useful indeed!

rd72 wrote:Although you have your answer, Darrell, it would be rude of me not to respond to the question you asked of me.

"1877" and "Yes"...... :)


Thanks :) .

The Forum is so full of members who are experts in "snap shooting" that sometimes, it is hard to get a post up in a timely fashion... Speaks to the "passion", I might suppose.....


To be honest, that's what instigated my drift over here. Someone mentioned the existence of this forum and I thought it too good an opportunity to miss and perfect for my wargaming needs. And so it has proved thus far 8)

Incidentally, the symbol for the Colonel in the diagrams is the rectangle with the bar inside and the cross at the "top".... Curiously missing from the "battalion in line" sketch....


Another fine example of something that I wouldn't have know in a million years!

Thanks to both you and Mike.

Darrell.
Atheling
Participating Member
 
Posts: 120
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 16:43

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Josh&Historyland » 07 Feb 2015 11:42

rd72 wrote:Although you have your answer, Darrell, it would be rude of me not to respond to the question you asked of me.

"1877" and "Yes"...... :)

The Forum is so full of members who are experts in "snap shooting" that sometimes, it is hard to get a post up in a timely fashion... Speaks to the "passion", I might suppose.....

Incidentally, the symbol for the Colonel in the diagrams is the rectangle with the bar inside and the cross at the "top".... Curiously missing from the "battalion in line" sketch....


I beg your pardon RD. didn't mean to snap shoot, I added the "?" hoping you would be able to confirm, thus still answer. My apologies.

Josh.
Adventure's In Historyland, Keeping History Real. http://adventuresinhistoryland.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Josh&Historyland
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 02 Mar 2013 14:11

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby rd72 » 08 Feb 2015 06:01

Josh&Historyland wrote:
I beg your pardon RD. didn't mean to snap shoot, I added the "?" hoping you would be able to confirm, thus still answer. My apologies.

Josh.



Josh,

No pardon required,..... at all..... I used the "snap shooting" comparison to illustrate the talents of those here who, like in the shooting practice of the same name, are, within an extremely short timeframe, able to assess a question, formulate an answer, put it to type and "hit the bull" so-to-speak..... :) .... Usually in reply to a post that one is looking forward to answering/adding to, all before one can do it oneself.....

"Snap shooting" was indeed a most sincere compliment,...
Cheers,
Rob
User avatar
rd72
Senior Member
 
Posts: 483
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 17:44

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Josh&Historyland » 08 Feb 2015 13:50

That's very good of you to say RD, I see now. Of course snap shooting can have its drawbacks, I've personally been fast on the trigger a few times and missed the mark! :roll:

Josh.
Adventure's In Historyland, Keeping History Real. http://adventuresinhistoryland.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Josh&Historyland
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 02 Mar 2013 14:11

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby jf42 » 24 Feb 2015 00:00

I just thought I would post images of these two well known battle paintings of Tel el Kebir, and one of my favourite photographs of 1914, an officer group of the Cameronians at Le Cateau.

Guards.jpg
Guards.jpg (44.77 KiB) Viewed 460 times


Black Watch  Command group Tel el Kebir.jpg
Black Watch Command group Tel el Kebir.jpg (93.29 KiB) Viewed 460 times


O Group, Cameronians. Le Cateau,  September 1914.jpg
O Group, Cameronians. Le Cateau, September 1914.jpg (86.28 KiB) Viewed 460 times
User avatar
jf42
Senior Veteran member
 
Posts: 2299
Joined: 10 Mar 2011 15:12

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby susancammas » 25 Feb 2015 18:51

"Horses would generally be bought in theatre (certainly In India and South Africa)."

Would the horses to draw the guns in the RHA in India also have been brought in theatre?
(I'm interested in the period 1876 to 1910)

Many thanks
Susan
susancammas
Participating Member
 
Posts: 148
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 15:10
Location: France

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby Frogsmile » 02 Mar 2015 23:11

susancammas wrote:"Horses would generally be bought in theatre (certainly In India and South Africa)."

Would the horses to draw the guns in the RHA in India also have been brought in theatre?
(I'm interested in the period 1876 to 1910)

Many thanks
Susan


Yes, English horses were entirely unsuited to the climate.

Prior to 1887, the purchase of horses was the responsibility of individual regimental colonels, in the case of cavalry regiments, or of agents acting on behalf of the artillery and engineers. This system worked well enough in peacetime but rapidly broke down during war when demand exceeded supply, prices rose and, the price that could be paid per horse being set by the Government, regimental purchasing officers and agents were frequently left with the most inferior animals.

Consequently, in 1887 the Remount Department was set up in order to ensure the uniformity and suitability of the animals purchased for the army, and their training. Owners were encouraged to register a proportion of their horses with the Department, the Department having the option of purchasing these animals for a fixed sum in time of emergency. In recompense for this, the owners were paid a pension of 10/- per year for each animal.

The Remount Service was only responsible for supplying horses and mules for use in Britain. Animals used by the Indian Army were entirely purchased by the Indian Government and those used by the British Army in the Middle East and elsewhere were bought by the local General Officer Commanding.

A large number of veterinary officers served in India, which had an extensive animal establishment. Many of these animals were kept as part of the military food chain but there was extensive use, particularly of mules, in support of mountain artillery and other units operating along the North-west Frontier. Numerous contagious diseases prevailed. Anthrax, Foot-and-Mouth, Glanders and Rinderpest were but a few of the diseases encountered and it required constant veterinary vigilance, good husbandry practice and the development of vaccines to combat them. Rinderpest was one disease brought under complete control by the Army Veterinary Service in India. Mallein, the testing agent for Glanders, was developed by the RAVC and produced at the RAVC Laboratory Aldershot.

Remount Training School and Depot, Saharanpur.
The establishment was raised on 01 Feb 1843 as Stud Depot, under the aegis of Stud Dept of India with the aim to improve the stock of horses for the British Army. Subsequently, the Stud Dept was abolished in 1876 and Army Remount Dept of India was established in 1881. During those days the main task was procurement of young country bred horses and their rearing till issue to various units. In addition, a reserve of 500 Australian horses ('Walers') was auth in this Depot, to be kept fully trained and ready to move. On reorganization of Army Remount Dept in 1904, this Depot was renamed as Remount Depot, Saharanpur, with the authorised strength of 2236 horses, which was revised to 2591 horses in 1908.

Remounts and Veterinary Corps is one of the major arms of Indian Army. Before the 1914-18 war the Remounts Directorate was responsible for the purchase, rearing and issuing of remounts to the three non-silladar regiments, the British cavalry and other artillery units. It was also responsible for the army transport animals except for their purchase, organisation of the animal resources in the country for war, fitness of the animals so produced for the use of the army, mobilisation of fighting units or of transport, mobilisation of remount units for the field and control and distribution of horses in the units. Some breeding centres were also supervised by the department.

History of Remounts and Veterinary Corps
The remount depots at Saharanpur, Mona, Babugarh, Sargodha and Ahmednagar held the animals. There was a Remounts Directorate at Army Headquarters under the Director General of Remounts. During the war the functions of the Department were enlarged and the mounting of the whole of the Indian cavalry became its responsibility. It was also made responsible for the provision of camels and draught bullocks and the maintenance of about 70,000 horses. An officer was attached to each command as an adviser to the army and district commander on all remount problems. The veterinary service was responsible for the care of the animals of British units while the Indian units looked after their animals themselves. There was a Director of Veterinary Service at Army Headquarters. For this purpose the country was divided into three circles - northern, central and southern. In the First World War, Veterinary Corps provided vet cover to animals employed in Palestine and Russia. It was in the Second World War that normal weapons such as Rifles, Bayonets, and Carbine Machines were authorised to the Corps. Vet personnel also received training in battle inoculation in addition to technical training.

Role of Remounts and Veterinary Corps
Some of the main functions of Remounts and Veterinary Corps include procurement, rearing, breeding, training of Army dogs for specialised tasks such as guarding and tracking. Prevention, control, treatment of infectious and contagious diseases, inspection of food of animal origin and prevention of zoonotic diseases are other responsibilities of Remounts and Veterinary Corps.
sq
Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.
User avatar
Frogsmile
Forum Fellow
 
Posts: 5008
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 20:17
Location: Wiltshire, England

Re: Officers on horseback

Postby HerbertKitch12 » 17 Apr 2015 12:38

Hi Gents

Thanks for all the feedback, ive been unable to contribute much lately owing to the fact ive just got married so things been a bit hectic.
Regarding officers on horseback am I reading this right - Regiment A marches off, all the officers from 2nd lieutenant up to colonel would be mounted on horse back. Regiment A engages the enemy and the majority of the officers barring colonel and majors would dismount in order to relay commands to their men?

I have a second question regarding regimental colours. I read that after 1879 (am guessing due to the Isandlawana disaster) the colours were no longer present in battle. Is this true? If so would regiments still carry the colours on the march but then remove them when they met the enemy ?
I remember reading about how the Union Jack was hoisted above Gordon's palace after Omdurman which would suggest the army's colours were still carried around on campaign but were kept hidden from the enemy.

Sorry for the stupid questions as ever (and the rushed presentation) this is for research purposes :-)
HerbertKitch12
New Member
 
Posts: 96
Joined: 28 Oct 2013 13:49

PreviousNext

Return to Egypt & Sudan 1882-98

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest