Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 1857

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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 05 Jul 2013 12:50

Rob

I'm still involved in academic red tape so haven't had a chance to go through my materials. Perhaps I could begin the search process which your relative might follow at what for Pte. Thomas Myers was definitely the end of his Lucknow/Mutiny story.

Several years after the event, those involved in the Defence of Lucknow were awarded 'prize money', taken from the confiscated funds of the ex-kingdom of Oudh/Oude/Awad and the booty captured during the Defence of the Residency. Not surprisingly, the 32nd Foot were the major beneficiaries, though the C-i-C India, Sir Colin Campbell got the lion's share, about £15 000, for relieving the besieged.

I've consulted two NA documents, both ledgers of payments due/made. These may give a clue as to whether Thomas Myers' relatives collected his prize money and, with some luck, give their names. Quite a few awards remained unpaid.

Lucknow Prize Money

I’m not absolutely certain whether private soldiers killed at Chinhut were awarded Prize Money, as were ODs who were killed at the Residency. However it seems likely as they were both awarded ‘Defence of Lucknow’ clasps to their IMMs. Certainly acting-Lt. Col. William Case, who commanded the 32nd at Chinhut and was killed there, received a payment for two days service.

Ist instalment WO 164/463 - payments seem to have generally been made in 1863. Most 32nd payments were made through Cox & Co., the regiment’s agents. Privates received one share, that is £1 14 shillings

2nd instalment WO 164/467 – payments seem to have generally been made in 1865-66. Most 32nd payments were made through Cox & Co., the regiment’s agents. Privates were awarded 1 share. I haven’t made a record of how much this is in the ledgers but, since corporals got one and a half shares, which was 1pound 16 shillings, a private must have got £1 4 shillings.

Next to be investigated (at the weekend) are the possible ways/times that Myers (and family?) got to India. Having some info. from the prize money ledgers might help.

Best

Les W.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 08 Jul 2013 03:54

Rob

Travel to India

I’ve looked up Thomas Myers (Reg. No 2654) on the 32nd’s medal roll for the Second Sikh War (Punjab Campaign) WO 100/13. He is on the roll (page 227), nothing mentioned about wounds, so this means that he was in India with the regiment by 1848. It is extremely unlikely that he would have returned to Britain and then gone back to India before the Mutiny/Rebellion of 1857-58.
There is also a John Myers (No. 3115), who disappears from the records later, on the medal roll. The regiment had some combat casualties during the intervening years but a great number of deaths due to diseases (especially cholera) or he might have left the army or transferred to another regiment. Whether he was in some way related to Thomas Myers I have no idea

It seems most likely that Thomas Myers left Ireland with the 32nd in 1846, bound for India.

The regiment had been posted in Ireland since 1844-45 and it seems likely that it was at this time that Myers was recruited while it was stationed at Dublin, until June 1845. Your relative might check the muster rolls WO 12/4761 or WO 12/4762 to see if his name appears there.

WO 12/4763 details the embarkation of the regiment for India from Cork in May 1846. The transport ships involved were the 'General Palmer', 'Duke (or Duchess) of Northumberland)' 'Aboukir, 'British Sovereign' and 'Edmundsbury'. We have accounts of the passage by Pte. Waterfield, who sailed on the 'Aboukir' and Cpl. Ryder who sailed with the 4th and 5th coys on the ' 'Northumberland' (200 men, 24 women and 28 children).

I did not get details of whether the women and children who were 'on the strength' when the 32nd left Ireland are named on the muster roll. Any info. re this would be gratefully received.

Best

Les W.

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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Bowman » 12 Jul 2013 05:46

Les

it seems that you are doing a great deal of work researching Thomas Myers on my behalf and I fear that I am leading you on a wild goose chase. If Thomas Myers partook in the Second Sikh War then I fear he is not my ancestor. My mother told me that he and his family arrived in India and "within 3 months was killed during the Mutiny and his wife died in childbirth at the Residency". The information that they were at sea when the Mutiny broke out was only recent information I received from a distant cousin. I agree with you that it would be most unlikely that if the last was the case that they would have reached Lucknow. It was only because of the fact that the only Myers listed in Mutiny casualties was Thomas Myers, that I felt that my mother may have been mistaken in the name of her great grandfather, who she believed was Charles. As I have said previously, many of my family were never referred to by their real name. It was Kevin Asplin who said he must have been of the 32nd Foot if his family were in the Residency during the siege. I now wonder if indeed he was in the military or was a civilian killed at the Residency. I also wonder however, if that was the case, how he could have afforded to bring his large family to India. Were civilian casualties at the Residency ever recorded?

You begin your last post with "Travel to India". I have in fact been there many times and for extended periods. I find the country & culture fascinating. I was at the time, however, not interested in family history. I do intend to return and will definitely visit Lucknow and Meerut, among other places.

your help is most appreciated.

cheers ... Rob
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 12 Jul 2013 14:22

Bowman wrote:Les

it seems that you are doing a great deal of work researching Thomas Myers on my behalf and I fear that I am leading you on a wild goose chase. If Thomas Myers partook in the Second Sikh War then I fear he is not my ancestor. My mother told me that he and his family arrived in India and "within 3 months was killed during the Mutiny and his wife died in childbirth at the Residency". The information that they were at sea when the Mutiny broke out was only recent information I received from a distant cousin. I agree with you that it would be most unlikely that if the last was the case that they would have reached Lucknow. It was only because of the fact that the only Myers listed in Mutiny casualties was Thomas Myers, that I felt that my mother may have been mistaken in the name of her great grandfather, who she believed was Charles. As I have said previously, many of my family were never referred to by their real name. It was Kevin Asplin who said he must have been of the 32nd Foot if his family were in the Residency during the siege. I now wonder if indeed he was in the military or was a civilian killed at the Residency. I also wonder however, if that was the case, how he could have afforded to bring his large family to India. Were civilian casualties at the Residency ever recorded?

You begin your last post with "Travel to India". I have in fact been there many times and for extended periods. I find the country & culture fascinating. I was at the time, however, not interested in family history. I do intend to return and will definitely visit Lucknow and Meerut, among other places.

your help is most appreciated.

cheers ... Rob


Rob

Thanks for the reply. My posts didn't require any new research, just having enough time to consult and select from my notes and other sources already gathered.

A few further points. There were other British 'Residencies' in India at the time, apart from that at Lucknow. A 'Resident' was appointed to those Indian states, of various degrees of independence, which were dotted all over the subcontinent. Lucknow was capital of the former kingdom of Oudh/Oude/Awad which had only been taken under direct British jurisdiction in 1856. The Residency building still retained its former name. Perhaps the Myers were elsewhere.

As to civilian casualties at Lucknow, I believe I have as complete a list as anyone but can find no name similar to Myers which would fit the profile. By the way, there were European families of non-officer,military personnel in the Residency apart from those of the 32nd - including those of NCOs of the 'Native' regiments and the NCOS and rankers of the Bengal Artillery

The nearest I have on my data-base is a Sgt. Thomas Molloy (military names were generally, but not always recorded accurately) of the Bengal Artillery who is not listed as killed or wounded, surprisingly as most of the few artillerymen became casualties. There is also a Mrs Molloy with four children, none recorded as having died, again surprising as the death rate amongst the children was very high. I have no proof of Mrs Molloy being wife of Sgt. Molloy but it seems likely.

Of the 39 'Charles' I have, no male fits the profile, though there is a Mrs 'Charles' McCurry (deceased), one of the few women of the 32nd I have managed to identify, as well as a Sgt. Archibald McCurry (32nd), killed at Chinhut. I'd guess that they were a couple. No McCurry children found but, as I've said before, the biggest gap I have is precisely the families of the 32nd.

So a couple of 'near-misses' but nothing to give us any confidence that we've hit on your Myers family.
I'll be back to you if any new info comes up.

Best wishes

Les W.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Bowman » 09 Aug 2013 02:01

hi Les

new information to hand. I have records from FIBIS that show F. James Myers on the Martiniere College register in 1858 and Charles Myers in 1859. These would certainly be my great grandfather Charles and his older brother Frederick. This puts them in the Lucknow Residency rather than any other Residency in India. I was aware that Charles always walked with a limp and now hear that was a result of a bullet wound during the siege. I presume these records are when Frederick & Charles first registered for Martiniere. I don't know if a private's salary in the 32nd Foot would be able to pay tuition fees at Martiniere but I presume they were taken in as orphans (after father killed at Chinhat and mother dying during the siege). I'm tending to come to the conclusion that Thomas Myers was their father. Could it be that Thomas did come to India with the 32nd in 1847 with the rest of the family joining him 10 years later? That would explain the story that they arrived in India 3 months before the siege. Still no idea of Thomas' wife's name.

cheers ... rob
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 12 Aug 2013 02:31

Rob

Apologies for not replying earlier and for the brevity of this, I have an ongoing family health crisis to deal with.

There are certainly no Myers , or anything like that, on the list of the 50 boys of the Martiniere college who were present during the Siege. Although I’m pretty certain that he doesn’t mention any orphans being taken on during the Siege, you might consult the relevant section of Edward Hilton’s ‘The Tourist’s Guide to Lucknow'. He was one of the boys and gives the fullest account of what went on at the ‘Martiniere Post’. There is, I believe, at least one edition available to read and perhaps even download online.

As to the possibility of a private soldier’s pay being able to finance children at such a school, I very much doubt it. It amounted only to a few pence a day. British Army and EIC European orphans were more likely to be sent to the Lawrence Asylums (one at Kussowlie /Kasauli, the other, I believe, at Calcutta) which were specifically intended for this purpose. They had been founded by Sir Henry Lawrence before he was killed at Lucknow. Of course there is always the possibility that someone with enough money ‘adopted’ or sponsored the boys, many parents lost several children, or the regimental colleagues of Myers may have chipped in, especially those who had come across ‘prize’ money which they didn’t declare.

Again, although not having the chance to follow Thomas Myers on the various muster rolls for the 32nd before the Sikh wars, I can’t say for certain that he did sail with the regiment from Ireland in 1846, there is the possibility that Mrs Myers was married to another soldier who joined the 32nd later, possibly transferring from another regiment which was common, and who had died, also very common. It is very unlikely that a soldier would have an already constituted family follow him to India, the cost would have been prohibitive. Another possibility is that Mrs Myers and her children had been ‘on the strength’ of the regiment which the 32nd replaced at Lucknow in January 1857 (barely six months before the Siege, and I can’t remember which it was – consult Rev. Polehampton’s memoir.) You will be aware how story lines get crossed, especially if there is anything ‘embarrassing’ in them to be hidden – like the children not being Myers’ own but adopted by him.

All speculation, but perhaps there are some lines of investigation worth following.

Best

Les W.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Debra03 » 06 Oct 2013 21:55

HI Les,

Thank you for all the great help you have given me. I know you already have this info. from the Researching Individual Soldiers & Sailors board, but I though I would post it here too for the general interest of others who have posted here. I am researching my 3rd GGrand Father Henry Briggs 1819-1883, 32nd Foot/Light Regiment 1839-1859, Private #1746, Original Defender of Lucknow. If anyone can add to his story, finds Henry's medals or has any relevant photos, they would be greatly appreciated. I will update his story as it unfolds in my posts on the Researching Individual Soldiers & Sailors board.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby evali68158 » 26 Jan 2014 09:07

Les wrote:"I’m not au fait with GPS, perhaps some kind person could help me to create a reference in that format. Google Earth doesn’t seem to want me to access that facility on the version I use."

The gps signal jammer ,have the good condition and the best condition.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Tommy01 » 10 Nov 2014 02:56

portable gps jammer sale,do you want it?
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Lucknow57 » 12 Nov 2014 21:08

Les, (and others)

Do you have on your list of Original defenders one John Hamilton, a Bombardier of 4th Co, 1st Battalion H.E.I.C. Artillery?
Reason I ask is this man I believe to have been born about 1810 and died 24 Aug 1858 and that he was a husband of one Margaret Hamilton (possibly nee Taggort), who may have been the lady who later went on to marry Jacob Thomas VC.
Also a child by the name of Ellen was born to John and Margaret Hamilton on 14 May 1856 at a cantonment near Lucknow.
I would be most interested if you have details of this soldier, as I believe he and Jacob Thomas would have been friends, due to the fact they were in the same Company.
PS. I have visited the Firepower museum recently to view the VC which is not on public display, but disappointed to find the Indian Mutiny Medal awarded to Jacob was not there? I am attempting to trace its whereabouts.
I do recommend a visit to the Firepower Museum, I only wish I had longer to stay and admire the exhibits, but my time was short having to catch a train home. 380 mile round trip worth it though.

Also must compliment the other contributors on this thread/forum for the extensive detailed research they have done.

Best wishes
Bill
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 13 Nov 2014 10:18

Bill

I have Bombadier John Hamilton of 4/1 Bengal Artillery as having died (therefore not k-i-a), either through illness or as a result of previous wounds, on 4 August 1857. I'll have to check the date with another source.
I have two Mrs Hamiltons on Brig. Inglis' official list of Officers, Gentlemen, Ladies and Women present during the Siege. Both are 'women' (i.e. not high status 'ladies'). One is listed as having been accompanied by three children (two dead, names n.a.). I believe that I have her identified as wife of another man. The other Mrs Hamilton, no children mentioned, I hadn't been able to 'identify'. Perhaps she might be the wife of John.

More investigation necessary, the Hamilton connections are quite complex.

Best Les.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Lucknow57 » 13 Nov 2014 11:08

Les,

The 'woman' i.e. Margaret Hamilton accompanied with three children and wife of John Hamilton (4th Co 1st Battalion Bengal Artillery) is almost certainly the Margaret who later went on to marry Jacob Thomas (the other man). The children are;- Margaret, born 10 March 1848. - Alexander, born 18 Nov 1851. - Ellen, born 14 May 1856.
I also suspect that this John and Margaret wed in Liverpool in 1848 where they may have sailed to India from.
I discovered the baptism/birth records of the three and all have the same mother and father, with John's profession as being in the said regiment. This being so would almost then confirm that upon Jacob Thomas's death in 1871, he had no children of his own. The record of his death document states wife, Mrs Thomas, two step-daughters and son, (my assumption is the son is a stepson, Alexander). I haven't been able to find when any of the children died.
I also had another one or two John Hamilton's, including one who died 23 August 1857, but this one was a Pipe Major in another regiment. Also another who died on 28 Aug 1858, a Civil Engineer aged 25. I am unable to find the death/burial record of John, the father (born 1810) of the three children as the findmypast document pulls up the 25 year old John.

Best of luck
Bill
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby Les Waring » 14 Nov 2014 11:55

Bill

Still in the middle of a difficult period, so opportunities for research are limited. However ...

On my data-base I have 9 Hamiltons.

Pte John Hamilton and Cpl. Walter Hamilton belonged to the 32nd Foot and died during the Siege, so can be discounted.

Mr W. Hamilton is listed by Brig. Inglis as a member of the 'Uncoveted Service' i.e. not senior EIC personel, though he MAY have been an EIC employee. On the preliminary list published in Rees, he is listed together with 'wife and three children (two children dead.) I have a provisional name of one of the children as 'Henry'. Mrs Hamilton is on Brig. Inglis' list of ' European women' together with her three children (two dead).

That leaves Bombadier John Hamilton (d 4 Aug?), who I have on a Bengal Artillery roll and the 'unattached' Mrs Hamilton on Brig. inglis' list (but NOT in Rees). I'm assuming, until further evidence appears, that these two were a couple. It was very usual for widows of lower ranking soldiers to marry comrades of their husbands soon after the first husband was deceased, as they were in a very difficult social and economic situation otherwise. The fact that Jacob Thomas was promoted around that time would make him an attractive prospect, and that annual VC 'pension' even more so. Every penny counted and pennies could go quite far in India.

I'll keep an eye out for more ifo. as best I can.

Best

Les W.
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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby TheronMcclune » 06 Dec 2014 08:02

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Re: Original Defenders of Lucknow Residency 1 Jul-24 Sep 185

Postby pmgibson » 20 Feb 2015 22:09

Hi, you were interested in Samuel Webster. I found this gravestone inscription that my Father had collected for his family history research. Samuel Webster was my great great grand uncle.
"On 10th July 1843 he enlisted for a soldier in H.M. Foot Regmt L.I. where he served for 18 years and 63 days. His conduct was good. in 1846 he went to the East Indias. In 1849 he received a medal for the Punjab with Moortan and Goosdrat clasps. in 1857 he received a medal with clasp for defence of Lucknow. On Sept 29 he distinguished himself in a sortee and the taking of 6 guns. he was severely wounded in Lucknow. The last few years of his life was past i extreme suffering from the effects of the wounds he received in Lucknow. His end was peace. Samuel Webster died 10th Feb 1875"
This gravestone is in St Mary's church, Bulwell, Nottingham.
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