Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

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Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby Josh&Historyland » 19 Jun 2015 18:12

I've been recently asked about the young boys in this picture, seated and standing beside Colonel Brownrigg. They are supposedly Russian POWs, cautiously thought to be musicians or drummer boys. The standing one is nicknamed Inkerman and the seated one Alma. Presumably this is where they were captured, though it could just be a Peter and Paul sort of thing.
A person who knows a relative of Alma was asking me if anything was known about them, or perhaps the photo, I don't suppose the colonel left any letters or memoirs for instance. The boy in question actually came to Britain and became naturalised as
Simeon Sinca. If anyone could help I'd appreciate it. It also opens up the question about what happened to the Russian POW's in terms of confinement etc.

Josh.
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Russian POW's.

Postby GrantRCanada » 19 Jun 2015 20:33

I am not seeing an image, Josh ....
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Russian POW's.

Postby Josh&Historyland » 19 Jun 2015 22:28

Hmm. You're right Grant.

Here's a link to the NAM's page.
http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/detail.php?acc=1964-12-151-6-40
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Russian POW's.

Postby Josh&Historyland » 30 Dec 2015 02:30

I'm giving this post a boost, and also updating my intial line of enquiry.

Can anyone ID to which nationality the hats of the two boys in the NAM photo (see link above) belong. Are they British "Pork Pie"/"Pill Box" or are they Russian. Given the lack of regimental insignia I doubt they are Russian hats, especially as it would be a year on from their "capture". A recent conversation with a relative of the standing boy may have revealed they are not boy musicians, and we're not captured in battle.

Also could anyone tell me if Brownrigg ever wrote memoirs, letters etc that might shed light on the boys. He was in the Grenadier Guards, and therefore I am not sure if he was a full Lt Col or whether this is his double rank?

All help appreciated.
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby Redleg56 » 01 Jan 2016 00:24

Josh:

The photo is also on page 86 of "Crimea, 1854-1856, The War With Russia from Contemporary Photographs" by Lawrence James.
There is a caption which quotes the photographer (Fenton):
"Tell Annie these are two Russian boys who would both like to come to England. Alma and Inkerman, such are their names; one is an orphan, the other has or had his parents in the town. They went out nutting last autumn and were taken. They cried sadly, but now would cry to go back".
The date of Fenton's letter is 29 April 1855.

As far as the caps: the young man in the rear does appear to be wearing a pork pie. Slightly flared crown, colored band and chinstrap. The one on the seated lad could be military. Or civilian?

Hope this helps.

Mike
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby Redleg56 » 01 Jan 2016 01:34

Josh:

Did a bit of Googling on Lt. Col Brownrigg.

The website cwrs.russianwar.co.uk has Lieutenant Colonel John Studholme Brownrigg, Grenadier Guards listed on the Staff as an Assistant Adjutant General in the Adjutant General's Department.

Archives.spectator.co.uk notes the following from the Military Gazette dated 3 November 1855:
"War Office, 2 November
General Orders
Brevet
Captain and Lieut-Col. S Brownrigg, CB, Grenadier Guards, to be Col. In the Army for dis-tinguished service in the field"
So at the time of the photo with the boys, his double rank is utilized.

Wikipedia lists him as receiving the Legion d' Honneur 4th Class. No date to the award however.

The Guard's Museum and the Regiment itself should have more information on the Colonel. Possibly letters?

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Russian POW's.

Postby maxnechitaylov » 01 Jan 2016 14:24

Josh&Historyland wrote:or are they Russian


No :)
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby mike snook » 01 Jan 2016 14:39

Not Kilmarnocks which is what I take you to mean by 'pork pie'. There was no facing colour band on the Kilmarnock. The one on the left....not even remotely close....if its not a Russian military cap, it's a peasant's cap or some such, surely. The one inside...a good deal like the old pattern of forage cap pre-dating the Kilmarnock, ('the cap with no name' as I like to call it, albeit some make a semantic case that it is also a Kilmarnock....but that's not what soldiers called it as far as I can see), which did indeed have facing colour bands. Here I speak of the infantry: I wouldn't swear without checking that the RA didn't have red bands during the CW. In fact I think they did....but there are those photos of Crimean gunners...google em for a look.

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby jf42 » 01 Jan 2016 15:26

I can't really see the relevant cap clearly in the image but the Guards ORs continued to wear a more structured form of forage cap until after 1900. They also retained the band of facing colour, I believe. Certainly, the the Scots Fusilier Guards/Scots Guards wore the band of dicing.

FWIW, there are also photos of Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery with individuals wearing knitted 'Kilmarnock' bonnets with coloured bands

41361_std copy.jpg
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Pte RE & Sappers 1856 copy.jpg
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In the Crimea, the Guards also wore the new fore-and-aft Field Service Cap (or "Albert bonnet') but there were plenty of forage caps still in evidence at Scutari on the way out. Not easy to ascertain coloured bands in evidence in these photos of the Grenadiers and Coldstream, so I am hesitating somewhat, but certainly the bands of facing colour were a feature for the Guards in the 2nd half of the C19th.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... treams.jpg
http://www.florence-nightingale-avengin ... adiers.jpg

http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/ ... 79-10-79-1


The other cap is a Tartar style of bonnet I have seen in relation to Napoleonic Russian uniforms
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby mike snook » 02 Jan 2016 02:03

What ho jf,

We've had at least parts of this conversation before I think, but it's interesting and will bear some repetition. It is the 'language' of forage caps which makes this so difficult. The Scots Guardsman in the photograph is not to my mind wearing a classic 'Kilmarnock' as understood by the awful 'pork pie' term, which is to say that which was sported in the line infantry and rifles in the Crimea. Nor do I see any classic Kilmarnocks (I will use that term for the avoidance of confusion) noticeably on display in the three lovely photographs, (though I will have another minute look after this), but rather a forage cap which is either something uniquely guardee, or which is the same pre-Kilmarnock forage cap with regimental hat bands earlier described. I have taken to calling these by the contrived (by me) name 'P1830 forage cap', because as I understand it in that year the style of the infantry forage cap was brought under much tighter regulation than formerly. I am not altogether convinced that the regulation produced absolute uniformity, absolutely straight away, because as with all these things there is a 'flash to bang' time from formal adoption to actual implementation. I can recall discussing Barthorp's apparent assertion that the classic Kilmarnock was introduced in 1834 and saying that I thought this was awfully early. I still think that and view the classic Kilmarnock as being adopted in an ill-defined bracket somewhere between 1845 and 1850. I wouldn't like to pin the tail on the donkey too precisely, but something like that. It is possible, I think, that Barthorp might have been referring to what I call the P1830 as a 'Kilmarnock' and that either he or I am out by four years, so I will explore that further. I always work on the assumption that Barthorp is more often than not right, because that is a man who worked very hard at everything he did, as far I can see. But he isn't invariably right - vide the conversation about 91st in the Cape (who weren't highlanders and all that).

To my mind all of: the Scots Fusilier Guardsman in the photo; the Russian lad in the tent; and the Guards groups at Scutari are wearing P1830 forage caps. I would be tolerably convinced that this is a classic piece of Guards conservatism at work, whereby, we don't do what everybody else is about to do because we're the Guards, sort of thing. In this instance why would they anyway (?) because they've got their snappy new field service caps which nobody else has got. So I think what you have is evidence of the Guards not wearing classic Kilmarnocks, which does very decidedly open up the lad on the inside of the tent to be wearing a pre-Kilmarnock (or P1830 if you will) Guards forage cap with coloured band. I think it absolutely fits that bill.

I didn't say it earlier, because it didn't seem relevant, but I do absolutely agree that highland regiments had a diced band on their classic Kilmarnocks. You will recall long conversations about the 74th in the Cape fm 1851 on and that's exactly what they have on their bonces. Classic Kilmarnocks with diced band and locally made leather peak added.

I'm not sure that a coloured in photograph counts as admissible in court m'lud, but I have no trouble with lumping in the Royal Corps of Sappers and Miners (tsk, tsk!!) with the RA in doing something different to the infantry just as you suggest.

Some way from the Russian lads per se, but hey ho, that's life.

As ever

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby mike snook » 02 Jan 2016 02:20

It's interesting how much taller the bearskin of the NCOs and men was then compared with now. Every bit as tall as the officers' pattern bearskins of our own time surely.

I still don't see any 'classics'. On the smaller 'main guard' group photo, you do get a good view of a coloured hat band on one of the chaps to the right, by the cart.

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby jf42 » 02 Jan 2016 15:12

Mike, greetings. I am not quite sure what you thought I meant in my last post, but I posted the image of the Scots Fusilier Guardsman from the 'Crimean Heroes' series to demonstrate what is indeed the more structured cap that the Foot Guards retained from the period before the Kilmarnock was ordered, (which I think equates with your 'P1830') and which appears to have had a band of distinguishing colour for the Grenadiers and Coldstream regiments. I believe the Scots Fusilier Guards did not adopt a band of dicing on theirs until circa 1838-39(IIRR).

Coldstream 1856 copy.jpg
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As you rightly divined, my intended point was that, given Brownrigg's Foot Guards connections, taking the distinguishing band as a cue, the cap on the RH boy in the photograph might be a Guards forage cap (evidently Grenadier) albeit a fairly battered example.

Thinking a little more about the matter, given the evidence of structured caps with bands of distinguishing colour still being worn by other corps (as well as more 'classic' forms), there might be other candidates, depending on your interpretation of the original form of said battered cap.

Royal Artillery trumpeters 1856.jpg
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Corporal Murphy and two other soldiers of the Royal Artillery.jpg
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Coy Sgt Christy and Sgt McGifford Royal Artillery.jpg
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I warrant, the tinted image in the previous post, if viewed in its original monochrome, would nonetheless show a band of distinctive colouring. Posted in haste, the caption was not mine. :|

Perhaps on another thread, I'd like to know more about the 'P1830' label. We do have watercolours by Michael Hayes from 1837 of the 46th Regiment in Dublin wearing your 'classic Kilmarnocks,' so although we know of regiments continuing to wear older forms, or foreign service 'special editions', into the 1850s, Barthorp's 1834 date may yet prove to have basis in fact.
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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby Josh&Historyland » 02 Jan 2016 16:56

I'd like to thank all the members who have offered helpful insight here, this I am sure will delight the relative. I must ask pardon of Mike and JF for using the detestable Pork Pie label, I much prefer Mike's classifications, I am rather under read on the whole forage cap debate and used the first descriptor that came to mind.

They are definitely not wearing Russian forage caps as they are missing the unit identifications that were found on the front and the battalion trim that ran around the top. However I'd be quite prepared to believe that they are wearing some form of Russian peasant hat especially in the case of the boy sitting, or some malformed regulation "p1830" style.

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby rclpillinger » 03 Jan 2016 17:06

Josh

Excuse my ignorance, but is your man here the son of the Brownrigg to whom Captain Taylor of the Tenth wrote the letter, a copy of which I have just published at http://www.tenthatwaterloo.com , just a few days after the Battle of Waterloo detailing the battle and its aftermath ?

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Re: Lt. Col Brownrigg & Boys (what hats do they wear?)

Postby Josh&Historyland » 03 Jan 2016 21:00

I don't know Richard, I think John Studholme Brownrigg was born in 1814 ( according to Ancestry anyway) so it's possible.

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