see how good you are on this topic

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see how good you are on this topic

Postby des from down under » 15 Dec 2016 03:11

as to when the first british troops engaged the maori here in new Zealand, and where and who..bit of a history quizz but breaks the quiteness, cheers
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby Josh&Historyland » 15 Dec 2016 15:54

Kororareka? The whole flagstaff thing in 1845
Is the first I know. Some of the 58th Foot were there. But maybe it's Cook at Turanganui?
Last edited by Josh&Historyland on 15 Dec 2016 16:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby grumpy » 15 Dec 2016 16:02

I didn't want my quiteness broken. Now look what you've done?
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby colsjt65 » 15 Dec 2016 20:55

The Harriet affair - 1834.
An expedition was mounted to rescue the wife and children of Jacky Guard, the master of the whaler Harriet, after the ship had run aground in south Taranaki. Twelve members or the crew had been killed and eaten, but Jacky Guard had been released to arrange the ransom to pay for the captives.

Instead Guard persuaded the Governor of NSW to mount a rescue. A company of the 50th Regiment departed Sydney 31 August 1834, in the government schooner Isabella, with 40 soldiers under the command of Captain E. Johnstone and Ensign W. H. Wright and HMS Alligator with 55 soldiers of the same regiment, commanded by Lieutenant H. Gunton.

The troops rescued the captives, killing several Maori and destroying several villages as a punitive measure. The Isabella returned to Sydney on 11 November and HMS Alligator four days later with Mrs Betty Guard and children.

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/maori-european-contact-pre-1840/the-harriet-affair
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby des from down under » 16 Dec 2016 04:19

pay that last post..yes, even suprised me when I read it..well done cols thought I would stump you guys for awhile but naaaa :D :o ...but there is not a lot written about this and am sure a lot of learned historians didnt realise this early date..and I found a 50th button some time ago so it makes it a bit more collectable,cheers for now des
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby colsjt65 » 16 Dec 2016 06:34

Okay. Got one to ask:
Which British Army regiment sent detachments that were the first to serve in New Zealand? In what year?
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby des from down under » 16 Dec 2016 08:14

mmm,,, my punt is firstl the 8oth around the 40s secondly the 58th around the 43s :?: ironically these are the only two tunic buttons that I havent got in my maori war collection...how did I do?? des :roll:
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby colsjt65 » 16 Dec 2016 09:22

Sorry. I know it's before the scope of this forum, but keep going back before that.
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby jf42 » 16 Dec 2016 12:34

colsjt65 wrote:The Harriet affair - 1834.

Twelve members or the crew had been killed and eaten,


Tactless, really.
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby des from down under » 17 Dec 2016 21:43

dang !! cant dig up a thing, keep thinking around captain cook but nothing conclusive..so..I SURRENDER :?:
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby colsjt65 » 19 Dec 2016 01:54

Not surprised, Des. It was something that a friend and I discovered only a couple of months ago - seems to have been overlooked for almost 200 years - The answer has been hidden in plain sight, in the books written by two of the officers who were here:


Two officers (Captain Richard A. Cruise, Ensign Alexander M. McCrae) and a detachment of 32 men of the 84th Regiment visited New Zealand for ten months in 1820, in HMS Dromedary, giving them the distinction of being the first members of the British Army to set foot in the country.
A similar detachment, consisting of one officer (Captain Arthur Bernard) and 27 men served aboard HMS Coromandel in New Zealand the same year.
The mission of both ships was to procure kauri, of sufficient size to be used as spars on 1st rate Royal Navy ships.
The Dromedary went to Whangaroa harbour and the Coromandel, you guessed it - to the Coromandel.

HMS Dromedary
His Majesty's Storeship, converted to convict ship, then converted to carry timber. Soldier guards embarked 9 Aug. 1819; took in 200 convicts from the Sheerness hulks on the 19th; 169 more from Portsmouth, making a total of 369 male convicts. Departed 11 Sept. 1819, arrived Hobart Town 10 Jan. 1820, where 347 convicts disembarked; the remaining 22 at Sydney on 28 Jan. Troops - 84th - 2 officers; 57 men of the 69th and 84th regiments.
The crew having been refreshed, while the ship was refitted [as a timber carrier], and having got on board twelve bullocks and two timber carriages, sailed for New Zealand on the 15th Feb, for the purpose of sourcing kauri for spars on large warships. Arrived at Kororareka 27 Feb.
On board, Rev. Samuel Marsden and nine New Zealanders, who were all either chiefs, or the sons of people of that rank; 84th - 2 officers; 2 sergeants, 2 corporals, 28 privates, 3 wives, 3 children.
Departed Bay of Islands for Sydney 3 Dec. 1820, arriving 21 Dec. Here she remained to refit and to refresh her crew. Sailed for England 14 February 1821, anchored at Plymouth 3 July.

HMS Coromandel
His Majesty's Storeship, converted to convict ship, then converted to carry timber.
Departed England on 30 October 1819, with 300 convicts, and a guard of soldiers of the 46th and 84th regiments, under Captain Bernard, of the latter, with Lieut. Raines, of the former Regiment. Sailing via Rio de Janiero, she arrived at Hobart 12 March 1820, where 150 of the convicts (and the 46th?) were disembarked. Departed for Port Jackson on the 25th with the remainder, arriving on 5 April. After being refitted to carry timber, she sailed for New Zealand on 17 May.
On board; 84th - 1 officer; 2 sergeants, 1 corporal, 1 drummer, 23 privates, 7 wives (one died, giving birth, 4 June 1821), 1 child born at sea on voyage from England.
Met up with the Dromedary at Bay of Islands (Cowa Cowa) 30 May, anchored at Parro Bay. Sailed for Thames 7 June, anchored first off Colville on 13 June 1820.
Arrived at Sydney from New Zealand, 14 June 1821, with a cargo of valuable spars for His Majesty's dock-yards. The cargo has been procured in the River Thames, from which place she was 17 days coming hither.
Departed Sydney on 25 July, arriving in England on 17 Dec. 1821. Four children born during voyage.


jf42 - Not sure, what to make of your comment. I am afraid that cannibalism was a widespread and accepted tradition in pre-treaty of Waitangi Maori culture. It finally ceased, mainly due to widespread conversion to Christianity. It was last recorded in 1843.

Initial contact between Maori and European was fraught with 'cultural misunderstandings', which involved cannibalism in every case:

  • 1642 - Moordenaar's Bay (Murderers Bay) Cock boat from Dutch explorer, Abel Tasman's, ship rammed by a waka. Four sailors killed and one eaten. One Maori shot.
  • 1773 - Marion du Fresne - French explorer and 24 crew attacked and killed by local Maori 12-13 June 1772. Around 250 Maori killed in subsequent fighting.
  • 1773 - HMS Adventure - Wharehunga bay ("Grass Cove") massacre. During Captain Cook's second voyage, 10 crewmen from Captain Tobias Furneaux's ship killed. When Cook later returned in the Resolution, the chief responsible could not believe it when Cook did not take his utu and instantly kill him. Cook instead admitted that the sailors were responsible for the affray.
  • 1809 - The Boyd - this ship was attacked and seized in Whangaroa harbour. Most of the crew died in the attack or after capture.
  • 1834 - The Harriet ran aground in south Taranaki.
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby des from down under » 22 Dec 2016 00:54

wow, thanks for that, so much enjoyed reading the post, what a lot of info you store under that 65th cap, thanks again and merry xmas to you, regards des
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby walrus » 13 Oct 2017 04:22

Just wondering why a 'Josh and History Land' always posts a link in peoples posts which lead to a Yankee History of the Revolutionary War or Vikings? Self Advertising, maybe? Certainly not of the Victorian Era !
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby walrus » 13 Oct 2017 04:24

Josh&Historyland wrote:Kororareka? The whole flagstaff thing in 1845
Is the first I know. Some of the 58th Foot were there. But maybe it's Cook at Turanganui?



Why do you keep Posting your link about the American Revolution and Vikings for? It is not about Victorian Wars.
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Re: see how good you are on this topic

Postby walrus » 13 Oct 2017 04:28

colsjt65 wrote:Not surprised, Des. It was something that a friend and I discovered only a couple of months ago - seems to have been overlooked for almost 200 years - The answer has been hidden in plain sight, in the books written by two of the officers who were here:


Two officers (Captain Richard A. Cruise, Ensign Alexander M. McCrae) and a detachment of 32 men of the 84th Regiment visited New Zealand for ten months in 1820, in HMS Dromedary, giving them the distinction of being the first members of the British Army to set foot in the country.
A similar detachment, consisting of one officer (Captain Arthur Bernard) and 27 men served aboard HMS Coromandel in New Zealand the same year.
The mission of both ships was to procure kauri, of sufficient size to be used as spars on 1st rate Royal Navy ships.
The Dromedary went to Whangaroa harbour and the Coromandel, you guessed it - to the Coromandel.

HMS Dromedary
His Majesty's Storeship, converted to convict ship, then converted to carry timber. Soldier guards embarked 9 Aug. 1819; took in 200 convicts from the Sheerness hulks on the 19th; 169 more from Portsmouth, making a total of 369 male convicts. Departed 11 Sept. 1819, arrived Hobart Town 10 Jan. 1820, where 347 convicts disembarked; the remaining 22 at Sydney on 28 Jan. Troops - 84th - 2 officers; 57 men of the 69th and 84th regiments.
The crew having been refreshed, while the ship was refitted [as a timber carrier], and having got on board twelve bullocks and two timber carriages, sailed for New Zealand on the 15th Feb, for the purpose of sourcing kauri for spars on large warships. Arrived at Kororareka 27 Feb.
On board, Rev. Samuel Marsden and nine New Zealanders, who were all either chiefs, or the sons of people of that rank; 84th - 2 officers; 2 sergeants, 2 corporals, 28 privates, 3 wives, 3 children.
Departed Bay of Islands for Sydney 3 Dec. 1820, arriving 21 Dec. Here she remained to refit and to refresh her crew. Sailed for England 14 February 1821, anchored at Plymouth 3 July.

HMS Coromandel
His Majesty's Storeship, converted to convict ship, then converted to carry timber.
Departed England on 30 October 1819, with 300 convicts, and a guard of soldiers of the 46th and 84th regiments, under Captain Bernard, of the latter, with Lieut. Raines, of the former Regiment. Sailing via Rio de Janiero, she arrived at Hobart 12 March 1820, where 150 of the convicts (and the 46th?) were disembarked. Departed for Port Jackson on the 25th with the remainder, arriving on 5 April. After being refitted to carry timber, she sailed for New Zealand on 17 May.
On board; 84th - 1 officer; 2 sergeants, 1 corporal, 1 drummer, 23 privates, 7 wives (one died, giving birth, 4 June 1821), 1 child born at sea on voyage from England.
Met up with the Dromedary at Bay of Islands (Cowa Cowa) 30 May, anchored at Parro Bay. Sailed for Thames 7 June, anchored first off Colville on 13 June 1820.
Arrived at Sydney from New Zealand, 14 June 1821, with a cargo of valuable spars for His Majesty's dock-yards. The cargo has been procured in the River Thames, from which place she was 17 days coming hither.
Departed Sydney on 25 July, arriving in England on 17 Dec. 1821. Four children born during voyage.


jf42 - Not sure, what to make of your comment. I am afraid that cannibalism was a widespread and accepted tradition in pre-treaty of Waitangi Maori culture. It finally ceased, mainly due to widespread conversion to Christianity. It was last recorded in 1843.

Initial contact between Maori and European was fraught with 'cultural misunderstandings', which involved cannibalism in every case:

  • 1642 - Moordenaar's Bay (Murderers Bay) Cock boat from Dutch explorer, Abel Tasman's, ship rammed by a waka. Four sailors killed and one eaten. One Maori shot.
  • 1773 - Marion du Fresne - French explorer and 24 crew attacked and killed by local Maori 12-13 June 1772. Around 250 Maori killed in subsequent fighting.
  • 1773 - HMS Adventure - Wharehunga bay ("Grass Cove") massacre. During Captain Cook's second voyage, 10 crewmen from Captain Tobias Furneaux's ship killed. When Cook later returned in the Resolution, the chief responsible could not believe it when Cook did not take his utu and instantly kill him. Cook instead admitted that the sailors were responsible for the affray.
  • 1809 - The Boyd - this ship was attacked and seized in Whangaroa harbour. Most of the crew died in the attack or after capture.
  • 1834 - The Harriet ran aground in south Taranaki.

Hey Colsjt65, do you have any information regarding the Yankee Whalers supplying the Moari's with weapons and training prior to the 'Moari Wars', Thanks.
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